11. Chris Zaborowski - Barrel Selection Deep Dive and Bourbon Steward Certifications

I look back on our history, we were buying Elmer T. Lee barrels. Can you imagine that concept now? No, I cannot even imagine that now.

You know, it was like in 2010, Julian Van Winkle offered, said, do you all want to buy a Van Winkle barrel? We didn't have the cash then. Had I known now what I do now, would, you know, I'd have ransomed my house, you know, to gone and done that.

Because you'd have made it back for sure.

Welcome to another trip down the Bourbon Road with your hosts, Jim and Randy. So grab a glass of your favorite bourbon and kick back.

We would like to thank Tommy and Gwen Mitchell from Log Heads Home Center for supporting this episode of the Bourbon Road. Find out more about their fine rustic furniture at logheadshomecenter.com. Randy, this episode was a little easier to recover from than our last one.

Yeah, that's true. Oh, Chris Z. Yeah, we had a good time with him today.

Yeah, so we were down at Westport Whiskey and Wine, and we were in their tasting room. Beautiful. Beautiful. Great place. Great place with Chris Zabroski, and he's the proprietor there. barrel picker extraordinaire.

I was going to say, you know, I don't know that I've ever met anybody who's been on quite as many barrel picks as he.

Those guys have got a lot of single barrel picks in their store. They are constantly doing them. There's a good selection and there's always something unique and tasty to find there, I think.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not so sure that I've ever been anywhere just yet that had quite as many, just the variety of stuff that he had.

Yeah, I mean, if somebody's coming to Louisville to experience the bourbon trail, the culture, the bourbon bars and all that, and they get a little time to go out and do a little bourbon shopping, this is a great place to go.

And prices seem to be comparable to anything out there.

And a huge selection. The entire wall, I don't know how long that wall is, dedicated to just bourbons and then they've got all their picks out. And of course you can taste things and wow.

Yeah, that's what I appreciated about Chris. Is it possible to try such and such? Be careful because when you do that, you may be walking out with a bottle as somebody did, right? I don't know who that would be. All right. All right, Randy. Well, let's get on to the episode. Sounds good. All right. Bye.

Hello, everyone. I'm Jim Shannon. Randy Manick. And we're here with the Bourbon Road podcast. And we've got a special guest with us here today. We're in Louisville, Kentucky at Westport Whiskey and Wine. And we've got Chris Soborowski. How are you doing today, Chris?

Good morning. Doing well, thanks.

Great. Normally on the show, we like to get right into the first pour of whiskey. What did you bring for us?

Well, we started off with one of our barrel selections, Kentucky Spirit. This is the brand that really made me love and fall in love with Wild Turkey. I'll tell a bad story on myself. Many, many years ago, when I was in the wholesale business, we were doing an interview for the old Global Magazine on a blind bourbon tasting. And in the mid-'80s, it was not a lot of selection of, obviously, single barrel programs were not available in those days. It was old Forrester, Makers Mark, Jim Beam, and Wild Turkey 101 were the brands that were doing this blind tasting. And of course, the tasting was set up by, in those days, Makers Mark published a little book, How to Do a blind bourbon tasting. And of course, if you followed the rules, you know who ended up winning the blind bourbon tasting. But so we're going through the whiskies and take the glass. We didn't have very, very nice glasses like the Glencairn's like these days. It was just a simple rocks glass, took the whiskey to my mouth, Wild Turkey 101 in particular, and I had a visceral reaction and I sprayed the whiskey.

Oh, no.

Oh, no. It was just totally. And John Filiattu was the editor of the magazine at the time. He wrote the article and said that. He just literally had a reaction and it sprayed it all over the table. So I got a phone call after the article came out from a gentleman by the name of Jimmy Russell. Oh, my goodness. And he said, did you really? And I said, yes, sir. Unfortunately, I did. And we chatted for a while and all that. And 101, to me, out of that group of whiskeys, was the most astringent. It taught me a lot about the higher proof and being in an astringent flavor profile.

Now by astringent, you mean that kind of has a bite to it?

Yeah, the bite and the heat of the alcohol. Turkey 101 is a very spicy whiskey. For a sweet whiskey boy who really loved Old Forester, which is also relatively spicy, but it just hit me in a different fashion. Also, it was the higher proof whiskey of the day. I just wasn't prepared for it. Ultimately, that was my first introduction to what the alcohol content and what the differences in everybody's whiskeys do. And how important that acclamation stage is. That's right. Exactly. So with that in mind, when the store started and we started doing the single barrel programs, went to Wild Turkey the first time, it's a little bit of trepidation. I'd started like, I mean, Rare Breed was my go-to whiskey out of their stable. And of course, it's not in their program. So we started picking barrels with Jimmy and recounted and talked about that story again. on our barrel pick. This is when he was still doing the barrel picks before Eddie took over totally. And we had a Kentucky Spirit offering and I was like, oh my gosh, flavor profile, everything was just, it hit me just absolutely just stellar. And I was going, this is the same whiskey. that many years before I had said no, I didn't enjoy. I learned a lot about location where they pick spirit barrels from versus where they pick Russell's barrels from and the batching of the process that they do to smooth, to make the whiskey consistent. But this one in particular I really liked. I call this the best of the spirit barrels we've picked over time.

Oh, great. And specifically on this one, is this a pick that you've done recently?

Yes, we did this one last fall and it just finally hit this year because they were backed up so bad on production. This just embodies everything I really like in a really good whiskey. It has a nose that seduces you. It does. It's really fragrant. If it doesn't grab you in the nose, why are you drinking it?

Right, exactly. Now this has got a great nose to it. It definitely has a little bit more of an aromatic nose to it than you typically get.

That's the other thing too. This technically would have been a barrel that we would have edged towards. That's the other thing. They don't say, this is a Spirit barrel, this is a Russell's barrel. They sort of do. They sort of designate where they think they're going to go to. But when we picked this barrel with Eddie, we were sitting there going, he has already learned my flavor profile. you know, 30 barrels or plus of their whiskey over time. He sort of knows what I'm going to like. So he had this barrel set aside and we tasted it, but he said, this is probably could go into a Russell's program. But when we tasted it, it was like, yeah, I could do that. But at the same token, let's taste it, cut a little bit down, and it just really blossomed.

Yeah. Sometimes people get sort of directed into a spirit because their Russell's pick doesn't proof out. Right.

We had that happen. We picked an absolutely stellar barrel that was, you know, right at the time, 110. But when they went to bottle it, they didn't even proof it down. They went to do it, and it was at 1096. And so we couldn't have it as a Russell's barrel because it had to be 110. So we called it Declassified Russell's and bottled it as a Spirit. But literally, they called on a Thursday where they get ready to bottle, and Eddie ran a bottle cut proofed down to 101 to the store so that we could taste it just to make sure it was OK. That's great. I mean, that's exceptional service in that regard.

That is very good service. So Randy, you're looking at the front of the bottle there. Why don't you give us the specifics on it if you can pick it out?

Ah, 101 proof, so definitely in my range. Yeah. Rick number five, let's see, from barrel number 0859, stored in warehouse F. F, okay.

That was a Camp Nelson barrel. Right, yep. So they... They have two main campuses, obviously, they have everything right there in Lawrenceburg, and then they have this property out in Nicholasville, which is the old Camp Nelson distillery. But they have a lot of barrels out there. And so we've been doing a run of Camp Nelson barrel selections. Traditionally, we've been getting stuff off the main campus, if you will. But recently, these Camp Nelson barrels have just really been good.

So they're in season right now, I guess, right? Well, let's go ahead and taste it. I've already done that.

Not bad for breakfast.

Okay, so yeah, the nose is obviously very aromatic. It gives a good waft. The palate, in my opinion, takes me down a different road a little bit. It's good.

It was not what I expected based on what my nose.

Yeah, I mean, sometimes there's a little disconnect, but I will go back. That first taste always, particularly the first taste in the morning when you haven't had anything else, even if you didn't have breakfast or did, That's going to be the influence of what you just did. But when you go back on that second taste, I think that that disconnect that you were talking about disappears.

You're right.

No, he is.

The first one, to me, the acclamation on that one, the finish was a little bit, I was like, I wasn't expecting it to be quite as bitter. And I go back this second one, and it's not there.

Well, that acclamation taste, as you say, is that in this case, it's all the barrel pulls you to the back. Okay, that first taste to even for me was all barrel. Right. And there's your there's a little bit of bitterness and all those types of tuition. But that's the structure of this bourbon. Okay. Everything else now is the color that's being painted on it. So you know, you've got I think you start to get the caramels, and I think you get the toffees, and then that little bit of fruit and floral that was there starts to show. There's a little bit of orange peel in those. I mean, this is a really complex, fascinating glass of whiskey. It is, it is.

And I'm also getting a little bit of evergreen, just a hint of it.

And that's where that rye comes into play. It will drop that little bit of green element into it that I think makes it really fascinating.

Well, this is a delicious whiskey, very tasty. And yes, you're right. So as the more I sip on it here, the more it starts to come around and kind of a little more match the nose.

Well, I tried to rinse out with a little water here to try to help. But it does make a difference. When we teach a class here or do anything along those lines, any type of tasting, I always tell anybody, never judge anything, wines, spirits, whatever, by that first taste. No. Something I learned long ago in a program at graduate school here at University of Louisville, there's a great article done by John Hilton was his name, but he did an article on supertasters and different things along those lines. When you go to taste something the very first time, whatever it is, food, wine, whatever, If you've never had it before, your body has a visceral reaction to it. It says, what the hell did you just do to me? And so it's always picking up that sharpness, that distinct something flavor profile that you've never experienced. The outer fringes. Yes. And so it takes that second taste for you to go, oh. I understand this better, you know, from that standpoint. And that's why so many people get turned off by certain spirits that first time. I mean, you go back and remember the very first time you probably had a beer and you go, why in the hell people drink this stuff or an IPA, you know, exactly. Definitely. If you're going something extra hoppy. But I'm just saying, you know, good old Budweiser or something, you know, at some point in your life, you start with something basic and you go, I don't understand this. But ultimately, we learn to process and handle and deal with all those different situations.

So one of the questions we usually try to start off with, just you've been around the bourbon industry, evidently, for quite a while. What does bourbon culture actually mean to you?

We liken it to call it hospitality. I mean, the whole bourbon culture is about hospitality, you know, more than anything else. It's shared, experienced, welcoming, all of those types of situations.

You know, I see that quite a bit. Now, this is something that surprised me when I moved to Kentucky was how, you know, somebody can pay a lot for bottles of bourbon, but they always want to share. you know, that they always want to share with you, hey, come here, have you tried this one? Well, no, I haven't. Well, here, let me hook you up. And I would agree with you there. Hospitality, I like that one. Are you originally from here in the middle?

I'm a Kentucky boy, born and bred, you know, other than living. Kids were born in, we lived in Central Kentucky. Our kids were born in Lexington. My wife and I both went to U of L and University of Kentucky. Both, really? Yeah. I spent a lot of my summers in Western Kentucky, where my mother was from. My wife has got the key to the city of Hazard.

Oh no, Hazard way over there. She was lost, wasn't she?

So from that standpoint, Kentucky is very much a part of who I am. What degrees were you? I got my degree in chemistry from University of Kentucky. I started my degree in biochemistry at the University of Louisville. didn't get funded my second year and I got a part-time job in a liquor store. Oh boy, and thus it began, huh? And thus it began.

So after the liquor store, you pursued a career, obviously.

I put it this way, the career ended up pursuing me. Yeah. The one store I started at, the gentleman bought a larger store, ultimately be his manager. He sent me to a wine education class at Bellarmine at the time.

Bellarmine was teaching a wine education class.

And three years later, I was teaching the class. and kept snowballing from there, went into the wholesale business, was in wholesale for 21 years. Out of the business briefly for a little while, was in the grocery store, went back to a college professor, got me to come in and be chief operating officer of a small biotech company he had. He couldn't run it full time, so I helped him get it organized for three years and then went back to work in the business, got an opportunity to work for Super Value Grocery Chain, was a grocery buyer. Big time, you know, a lot of multiple unit stores. And they wanted me to move to Eden Prairie, Minnesota. And I said, oh, that's too cold for me. It's cold up there. Yeah, I'm not going, even though it's pretty. But you know, I said, no, I'm not doing it. And I was approached by my partner, Richard Splann, who said, hey, let's do something. And what year was that? That would have been 2000. That was the latter part of 2006 that we started talking. And then 2007, we explored. a lot of different places and options, unfortunately, that didn't work out until we, you know, my father always said, you know, things happen for a reason. You know, the places that didn't work out, the first letter of intent for a chain of stores that we made an offer on totally fell apart. And I got a call from a gentleman named Houston Jones, used to be a local restaurateur here for many years. He got started as a business broker and Houston called me up and says, you got to come take a look at this place. And I'd known him for 20 years and said, OK, sure.

And we came out here to what is now Westport Village.

And it was just in the very infancy of its development. And this was what year about? This had been 2007. 2007, OK. And a local group by the Underhill family was developing what was the old Camelot shopping center for locals, they will understand that it had gone really downhill and they built this up and said, here, come take a look. So it took us about a year to, we walked away the first time, came back and said, okay, let's do it.

So, I mean, this is one of the older buildings on the site then.

Yeah, this particular building that we're in at one time was Champs Rollerdrome, which is now located a little farther down the street. This was the roller skating rink. Eventually, it was, again, for locals, Levy Brothers building and home supply was in this particular building. And when they went under, Gaddy's did a Gaddyland for those out of town. It's more like a Chuck E. Cheese's pizza place. This has been subdivided so many times. It's just a really old building.

But it's really come along. This whole development here is just, it's got a lot of culture to it. I guess it's own culture. I think it's own charm. Yeah, charm if you will.

Yeah, I walked in here and I don't know that I've ever seen a more varied variety of bourbon. You've got some things here. I was like, man, I don't know that I've ever seen that before. Well, that must have taken some time to actually collect all this.

We started the store and named it Whiskey and Wine for a reason. So in 2008, when we finally opened the doors, it was the concept being we wanted you to find whiskey, hard to find whiskeys in the store to begin with. And this is long before bourbon started its boom. I mean, 2008, as we all know, was a tough economic year. And bourbon was just doing okay, you know, there was a small uptick, but it wasn't. And I really put a lot of I mean, we have the best scotch selection in the city. And we have the best bourbon selection in the city. I mean, you mentioned another group that has a tendency to say they have a carefully curated selection of bourbon, I will pick on them right now and say, not even close, buddy, not even close. So we, we feel that you when you come in here, people are always gone. They spend a lot of time looking marveling at the shelves and go, Oh my God. And God forbid they step back here in the tasting room and then take a look at the back bar. Then you know, you see jaw drop a lot of a lot of different ways. So concept is always be come to find a really good whiskey. I mean, we have American single malts. We have great selection of rye. It covers a great gambit of things. I really love good Irish whiskey. I love good Scotch whiskey, too. If it's brown, I'll drink it, basically.

Yeah, I'm kind of getting that way myself, I think.

Yeah, this is a beautiful area you have back here in the back of the store, this tasting bar. It's very unique. I love the bourbon barrel contoured bar there. It's absolutely beautiful. We'll make sure we get a picture of that to put online.

Speaking of tastings, it looks like you're set up for a flight back here.

Every week we do a special flight of four whiskeys. And it's basically a half price of what if you bought each individual as a shot. So you get four whiskeys. I think technically this whisky flight, it says here is 26 and he's got it down for 20. That's a little bit more than the half I was mentioning. But still the concept being is, It's a good value of having four different rye whiskies from Willett. And if you've not tried the Wilderness Trail, it's phenomenal. Peerless is really very good. And New Riff is outstanding for a brand new distillery as well.

Yeah, that's a good selection up there. I think maybe when we're finished here, I might go through a flight. If it's not too early.

And the days of the roller skating rink will come back because we'll be wobbling a little if we did that.

So how has your bourbon selection here changed since 2008?

Oh, God. For those familiar with the store, as we say, the back wall of the store is all bourbon, and it's some almost 40 feet worth of shelvings of bourbon. When we first started, that wall was all vodka, because in 2008, and even technically still in 2019, vodka is still the number one selling spirit in Kentucky. Yes. And so coming from coming from the background, when we used to do a lot of store sets, when I was in wholesale, I did a lot of shelf schematics. So I set the store based on the trends of the day. I mean, that whole back wall was vodka and we had tequila was next and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And bourbon was in a small 16 foot aisle. And our Scotch selection was probably about the equal, you know, from that standpoint in those days. And then, you know, slowly but surely, you know, the whiskey business started to change a little bit more graphically. 2010, we all know is a similar year in that. That's when the Van Winkle craze started. You know, it used to be sitting on the shelf. Right. Every day. And now you can't get it. Yeah. And so all of that started to steamroll about that particular point in time. And we've never, much to my partner's chagrin, when he was traveling and working in those days, he'd come back from a trip and goes, where'd you move this now? You know, because we were always constantly looking at what was happening in the business. And my wife, Robin, she had a really good idea one day because she was the visual person. She's the architect in the mind's eye. She sees everything pretty well. So you need to move the whiskey all back into this back aisle. It'll make it more shoppable, make it more visual, and all that. And so we reset the whole damn store again.

That's quite an undertaking, I would imagine.

It takes a lot of time. Somebody didn't get any sleep that night. So we started doing that. And then slowly but surely, it kept growing. We kept adding a rack here, a rack there. We kept shrinking sections and moving things around and try to keep up with the growth, stay ahead of the growth of the business too.

So your tasting bar here is obviously well received by the bourbon community themselves. So a lot of people come in here. So do you have, in addition to normal bottles, you also have your picks in here to be tasted?

Our store picks, we do a separate way. We have all of our store picks up by the front register that you can basically sample from every day. Yes, we'll bring them back here to pour when somebody wants to taste, but we keep them up front as a way of showing people one of the areas of focus we do for the store. I mean, we did 47 barrels of whiskey through the store last year. from all across every place we could get a hold of. And well, partly last year was a really good year for that because it was our 10th anniversary. And a lot of distilleries were very kind to us by allowing us to get some special barrels last year because it was our anniversary. And then this year, I think we'll come pretty close to that number again, the way we're going right now.

Wow. That's a lot of barrels. That's a lot of picks. For a single store, yeah. It's a big time. Absolutely. Well, let me sort of change directions here for a minute and talk about your involvement with Moonshine University. Can you give us a little bit of background there?

Our current mayor decided that there needed to be an education process in the Louisville area. If you're going to come and talk about bourbon, and he calls bourbonism as the term, you can't go into a restaurant or a bar and when you ask for a bourbon and somebody tells you, particularly when you travel to town, when you ask for a bourbon at a bar, what's the first thing they recommend? Jim Beam? No, it's a black label. Oh, black label.

It's another state. Oh, Jack Daniels.

Yeah, and that was happening too much in Louisville. Jack Daniels, excellent whiskey, you know, easy to drink, all the right things, but it's not technically a bourbon. You know, charcoal mellowing makes that difference. Maybe get into this whole big, all of last part of 2018 and 19, all the bourbon blogs, this big argument was why isn't Jack Daniels a bourbon? Technically, it's not, but the reality of life is it's a sour mash whiskey, just like a bourbon. It's a bourbon up until Charcoal Malloway. The real reality is you can't come into Louisville, Kentucky and go to a restaurant and have a server tell you that, you know, when you ask for a recommendation on a bourbon, that they're going to show you Jack Daniels.

Agreed.

Yeah, you're right. So there was an education process to begin. So the mayor's office was was the, you know, on the forefront of it. Moonshine University was the brainchild of the guys at Distilled Spirits EpiCenter and Flavor Man. Flavor Man in particular. David had a team over there that got involved early on. Colleen Thomas now with the Kentucky Distilled Association. She and the group over there got involved very early on. The Kentucky Distilled Association was involved. And I saw this was happening, and I said, I need to be involved. And so we developed a curriculum, you know, to teach people about bourbon.

So you were really kind of part of this from the very beginning. Yes. And you also are a faculty member there, right?

They have a week-long course, and I'm one of the ones that comes in and speak about, you know, how to get your whiskey to the market to these new people. You know, talk about the pitfalls and the challenges of doing things along those lines. Plus, I teach a bourbon steward class here through that too.

You do teach here as well?

Yes, coming up this Saturday as a matter of fact.

What all is involved in this bourbon steward class? This is something that I got turned on to recently here, a bourbon steward. A lot of our fringe listeners may not even know what that is.

Well, it's called the Stave and Thief Society and ultimately is what the name of the program ultimately boiled down to. Moon Chan's a whole spectrum of classes, but Stave and Thief Society is that recognition. If you know in the wine business, they have a master sommelier class. Ultimately, you can get a certification and now there's all kinds of other certifications, but the Stave and Thief was that entry level that way to give a good vocabulary and a good way to teach serving staff how to speak bourbon, really how to speak whiskey in general, but specifically into bourbon. And so the class is designed, we're designed originally for servers, but we have all of our staff has to take the class here. And it helps you understand the distinctions in talking whiskey, so that you can say, this is what makes an Irish whiskey an Irish whiskey, this is what makes a Scotch whiskey, and this is why bourbon is distinct. because of all of these characteristics. And also, there's a component, a small sensory component in the first class, where at the end of the class, when you're taking your test, the only essay question is, if you will, you have a guest coming into your establishment. And they're asking for a recommendation. And you say, pick three whiskeys for them. And this is why I did it in defender's position. So we do our staff, we do a little bit different because this is what they did to me in a class there, is they give you four whiskeys blind. and you're supposed to taste them, analyze them, and defend your position, whether you get them right or wrong. Not necessarily the goal wasn't to say, this is what the brands were, but it's defend your position. So we train our people to do the similar thing. It's a sensory way to do it. And it's a lot of fun. When we teach class here, I mean, we start early at nine o'clock in the morning, and by noon you taste a lot of whiskey before the morning's over. But the last thing we put every one of our guests through when they do it is the same four whiskies that they did to me. And it's fun to watch, and it's fun to listen to the kibitzing and the conversation. And it's like, tell everybody. It's not that you get it right. It's just like, can you taste the difference? And really, the key thing is, can you taste the difference between a traditional mash bill with rye as your grain and a weeded mash bill? And that's really all we're trying to make a distinction, first off and foremost. Can I tell you what every whiskey is they put in front of me blind? No.

No, we say the blind is the great equalizer amongst bourbon folks.

That's why when we do tastings, when we do a whiskey class here for the general consumers, we always do them blind. And we can always get a good crowd. It's always disruptive. There's another small bourbon group that I'm in that's got a lot of the local whiskey writers that say not wine writers. Some of them do write about wine too. I did this blind tasting to them, and a couple of them said, I just don't like Maker's Mark. I've never liked Maker's Mark, you know, that type of routine. I won't call that person out, but you know, and another one says, you know, And I don't like that particular style of whiskey, that particular whatever. And so they tasted them blind. And of course, the person who didn't like Maker's Mark, that was their favorite whiskey out of the situation, that type of routine. So it's always fun to do it that way. It's a great equalizer. But it allows you to focus on the whiskey and not the brand. Right.

Right. The site is only the first little part. The other senses take over now. It's not looking at the bottle.

Yeah, I think that certainly any enthusiast who enjoys to drink bourbon should employ their own blind tasting events at home or with friends from time to time and it's amazing what you'll come up with.

And you know, I find sometimes mine are very dependent on the day and what I might have had to eat or that kind of stuff. You know, I go, well, man, it didn't taste like that last week. What happened? How long are these classes? How many classes do you have?

We do a formal sit down event at least twice, sometimes three times a week. Our Thursday nights are pretty much informal nights here now. where we call it Open Bar Night, where we have a gentleman, Steven, who puts together a program of, you know, he's the guy who does our flights, but he'll put together a theme that night, have special whiskeys, he'll have one flight, he did a margarita, a really successful wild margarita class recently, and just always something creative, something different, you know, we want people to experience because we think the best way to learn about any product is to taste it. So we're going to give you, we're going to throw every opportunity out there for you to taste. Like tonight we have a class on celebrating Robert Mondavi's hundredth birthday in a hundred plus now, but ultimately we've got a gentleman coming in to do a wine tasting, you know, through all of those wines that Mondavi was passionate about and really set Napa Valley on its, you know, on its way.

So would you recommend, um, this class, this bourbon steward certification for just your average enthusiast?

Yeah, I mean, right. Everyone that comes in the Texas is just customers. I mean, these are just people that want to learn more about bourbon. The other thing that once you take this class, it opens up a lot of other free classes through Moonshine University. They have an aroma class that they've put together that you can go to. You can then get into the executive bourbon level, which is the second level. The third level hasn't been finished written yet, but the executive bourbon class is an amazing class. But you get a discount off that class for being that. Other invitations to other events that, you know, opens up the door. It's like we're building a series of a sensory class that we're going to do here that because you've taken the bourbon steward class, you can come and do that. There's a good gym class that comes, you know, the go take. So it opens up the door to a lot of education and just a lot of fun.

So Jim and I were wanting to become bourbon stewards here at nine o'clock Saturday morning. Be here at nine o'clock Saturday morning. What's it cost? $65. $65. And how long does it last? Three hours. Three hours. And you're a bourbon steward.

Well, you're not a bourbon steward until you take your test.

Well, oh boy. There we go.

Yeah.

You've taken a few of those, Randy. Yeah, I'm tired. It's just 50 questions. It's very easy. Only 50 questions.

A, B, C, A, A, B, B, C, C. But in this process, you learn how to taste and describe what you taste. You learn how to build a flight for a customer or a friend. And you learn how to discuss what you're experiencing.

That's the whole thing. We spent a great deal of time talking when you're tasting. deconstruct, you know, talking about what you're tasting, you know, because I try to give help people find vocabulary. That's the key issue more than anything else. Yeah, you when you say a suggestion to someone, yes, the power of suggestion is really real. But ultimately, it's about finding that vocabulary.

I don't know what word to put with what I'm sensing right now.

Exactly. And that's what everybody's biggest fear is, you know, more so than anything else. And I say, you do know what you're tasting. Just tell me, you know, tell me what's the first sensation. And then you get, the nice thing about alcohol classes is that usually after the second glass, people are much more willing to talk and share their experience.

We're finding that out about our second pour. Our second half of the show is a lot, runs a lot smoother than the first.

Well, speaking of that, I think this is as good a place as any for us to take a break. And when we come back, I'm kind of excited to see what you brought for the second pour. And then I'd like to take a deep dive into your barrel selection program here. Sure. Sound good?

Alright.

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Well, this one's a little more I call disruptive because it's not traditional Kentucky bourbon. We all know that technically bourbon can be made anywhere in the United States, but usually the best bourbon is made here. So this particular one is from a distillery that's been resurrected, a pre-prohibitioned distillery called Grass Widow. It is from Detroit, Michigan.

Okay. Grass widow from Detroit, Michigan.

So pre-pro, so this was a distillery that was well known earlier? Yes.

It was a big time distillery. You could think of like Nelson Greenbrier in Tennessee, you know, was very big beforehand. You can think of, you know, peerless, using a local example, being very big before prohibition. But again, like many others, it fell victim to that. And some people went back and found the references to it and decided to resurrect the still and start making whiskey again there. They make an incredible selection of strange whiskeys at one level. They have a peated bourbon that it's a two-year-old, you know, it's a bourbon, but they've peated the malt. And it's actually surprisingly really good. We were like, all like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. They have a couple of single malts that they do that are really good. But the particular bourbon that we bought a barrel of is straight bourbon but this one like many others this is MGP juice okay okay but they bought the barrels and they their particular track is that they after they've got their batch right they finish it in a Madeira wine barrel okay No, other people who do that finish as well. So we tasted the samples and it was like, oh my gosh, fell right in love with it right away. My favorite thing about the label is, is that they definitely are saving some money because they, and I don't know how they got away with this from the AT or the TTB, but it's still funny. The normal whiskey is 91 proof.

Okay.

Okay. So they just literally took the Sharpie crossed out the 45.5 and hand wrote 59.6.

What they don't know won't hurt them. Right.

So instead of saying 91, it's really handwritten, 59.6, 119.2 on the label. So we get a great kick out of that one because it truly is mom and pop when you think about it from that standpoint that somebody actually did it that way.

So this is an MGP sourced straight bourbon whiskey at Barrel Proof. Yes. That is curated by this distillery and then blended and then placed into Madeira casks. Yes. And how long do they finish it for?

It depends. They say they pick it when it's right.

Oh, sure.

You know, so usually somewhere between three and six months. Okay. All right. Well, let's try it. Again, it's got a great nose. I mean, it's very unique.

Yeah, I was going to say there's something different. We've got to find out what that is.

Well, this is a really big fruit nose to me.

Yeah, it is. It's a very big fruit nose. I'm getting kind of a, I won't say raisin, but it's more. Very good.

Yeah. I mean, it is dried fruit. I mean, it is that raisined type aspect. And if you think about what a Madeira is, Madeira is a dried wine, if you will. Sure. you know, sweet, dried wine.

And did you mention or do we know the age of the juice here?

The minimum barrel I know that when they first did the first batch was in that four to five year old range. And then they had some 12 year old that they batched in. So in a true single barrel sense, is this all one year? No, it's the idea that it's that single barrel of that batch that they finished in the, so you got one of the barrels from that Madeira finish.

So in the traditional sense, it's not a single barrel, but it is a single barrel from their batched efforts.

It's no different than what you're doing now with any second barrel condition barrel pitcher. What for reserves, double dog, for example, right? You know, it comes to mind when you think about it that way.

Yeah, I'm getting something else there. I can't put my finger on it, but it's definitely got a unique nose. It's very enjoyable. Throw me a curve.

There's a little bit of anise in the nose too. That's the other thing.

Yeah, I think so.

That's what throws people off and that really shows the riot character real well.

Wow, pow, right in the kisser.

That's good. That's delicious. And that's what, I mean, since we tasted this one, we were all, I mean, almost everybody unanimously said, this is really damn good. And it's just that enjoyable. You get just a little bit of the heat because we just went from our first selection at 101, now we're up to 119. Yeah, that little extra heat. you taste. But again, I'm not getting a burn down the back of my throat. No. And that's what I thought. The extreme balance of the whiskeys really was.

It's a little sweet and savory at the same time, but it's got a dry aspect on the center palate, kind of a little bit.

But that center seems to go away pretty quick, and then you get to that finish. This is what I want to call it.

We've talked before about a racetrack bourbon. You've got a chance with some bourbons to experience them as they move across your palate. This one kind of gets everywhere all at once, and really

Out of the gate strong and with a nice solid race to the long finish.

Yeah, that's an exceptional bourbon. I really like that. Well, you have to be honest in saying that I've never heard of it. I've never seen it before.

I never had either. And with a name like Grass Widow, I was sitting there going, OK, what are we in for?

So these are on your shelf here. And you've had them for about how long?

This particular barrel's about a year now. This is a high yield barrel, and people don't know enough about it. I mean, it's interesting. Most time we get people to taste it, then they leave with it. It's again, that's why we have our tasting samples up right up from the store. All of our team has opportunity to tell the story and get people to taste it.

So you guys have got a pretty good, pretty extensive barrel selection program. You mentioned before 47 or so barrel selections. Can you talk a little bit about your program and your vision for the program and kind of how you put it together?

Again, foresight of accident, you know, happened to put all this together. Our very first barrel that came through our store was a weller barrel, and it was actually because a neighbor of mine who and another friend of his had decided that they wanted to get some private label whiskey for themselves. And that's how we learned about the barrel programs. At that time, this was in 2008, we just opened the store and this whole barrel of Weller comes rolling in and it's like, Our plan was at that time, we would take two bottles of everybody's barrel. That was our payment, you know, basically for working with them. And that was kind of naive in those days, but the same token was kind of fun in the very beginning. And then we started looking into who all's doing barrel programs. Didn't really know about them. And they really weren't in vogue in 2008. I mean, it was, yeah, you could call a Buffalo Trace and say, let's do a barrel. And it was OK. Well, we're happy somebody's interested to sell us a barrel or buy a barrel from us. And so they would do that. So that opened the door to us to looking into what else can you do. And part of the challenge in the early days is we don't have a lot of cash. When you're building a brand new business, there isn't a lot of cash to buy. And a barrel can range in the low range, $6,000 to $15,000 now, a barrel. Or in the case of some, $20,000 plus $1,000. So in the very beginning, it was a slow build. And then when Bourbon really started taking off, we were already, I mean, I look back on our history, we were buying Elmer T. Lee barrels. Can you imagine that concept now? No, I cannot even imagine that now. In 2010, Julian Van Winkle offered, said, do you all want to buy a Van Winkle barrel? We didn't have the cash then. Had I known now what I do now, I would have ransomed my house to go on and done that.

Because you'd have made it back, for sure.

But again, it's that learning curve aspect of what you do. So it became a way for us to distinguish ourselves by saying, we need to look at doing barrels. You know, this is something that gives us a little bit of an advantage and it was really not happening in the marketplace either. Yes, stores have been doing barrels for a long time. I never forgot one many years ago, a friend of mine who owns Old Town Liquors on Bartstown Road when I was in the wholesale business. He did probably the first private label barrel I've ever ever came across. And actually, he did his own label too. And so that was my first experience into what was doing that. So I've always remembered that and said, let's go back and start exploring that more and more. So we talked to all of the legacy distillers and say, what kind of barrel programs do you have? and then started going from there, scheduling our trips, getting to meet, you know, start doing barrel selections that way. And it really morphed into, you know, being a member of the Bourbon Society at the time, it helped me to bridge that gap by saying to the distillers, said, you're not doing it for me, you're doing it for the Bourbon Society first. And that way, a lot of the first went to those people, to the club members that way. But that opened up that door to say, OK, now I want a barrel.

So are distilleries more inclined to provide barrel selections to groups like that?

I'd say that is also changed. In the last two years, no. As they call them, personal selection barrels along those type of lines are harder even for the groups to come by now. So they're having to find more creative ways to get barrels now, too, because the demand has got nuts. And my one rub against a lot of the distillery programs in their single barrel programs, and I understand this, it's more than just a Kentucky market thing. They're trying to meet the needs of the demands from Seattle, Washington to South Beach, Florida, New York to LA. And everybody wants one. And everybody wants one. You know, so the programs have gone from, you know, we'd be at four roses and I say, I'll take all three today, you know, or I'll take four, I'll buy four, you know, whatever. We could do that. Now it's your allocation this year's two, you know.

So what are some of the differences between some of the distilleries in their programs?

So much fun in terms of what you each disorder doing, you know, something a little bit different. There's the showplace picks and then there's the, let's just put a thief in a barrel picks. Okay.

It sounds like fun there. Yeah.

It's. My favorite, one of my favorite places to be is where I was yesterday morning, as a matter of fact, was that over at Wild Turkey Distillery, because there it's you're standing in the middle of the warehouse. It's not some special little room. It's not all, you know, all theater and everything. It's it's it's pretty much as you expect Wild Turkey to be and the Russell's to be. welcoming. We want you to taste some really good stuff. They have a pre-selection of barrels that they put into the single barrel program. But it's, again, fortunately for us, they know we're coming. So they want to make sure we have a few things that we're going to like more, or potential for us to like is usually pretty good. So we started off yesterday morning in the warehouse. Fortunately, Eddie was there. His son Bruce was there. Eddie's niece Joanne. So we had three of the four major barrel pickers right there with us yesterday morning on the selection. Eddie couldn't stay for the whole time, but he did say, we got these over here. And Bruce knows if you don't like any of these, there's these others over here to go taste. And it was like, so we go down the aisle. There's some barrels laying around. bang at the bung, put the thief in, or by puts their glass under, start tasting. And literally, if you didn't like that, let's go find something else.

Exactly. So I've been on a barrel pick with Eddie before. And it's not uncommon to go 10 plus barrels.

Oh, yeah. We stopped yesterday at seven that we actually found three yesterday. And we were very happy with them. But then it was the, OK, Bruce says, you've got to come over and taste this. And then he so it was a it was a ride and it was 11 year old ride that's going to go into that was not supposed to go into their next cornerstone. Yeah. Cornerstone project. And I would tell you, it was unbelievable. And we were picking with Butchtown Grocery yesterday and Bobby, Chef Bobby immediately said to him, I'll buy this barrel right now if you'll let me. Yeah. And They leveraged for a while. I think the arm wrestling started, but they said, no, they couldn't allow that one to go out. But that one is one of my favorite experiences because you go there and everything's just authentic. There's no frou-frou. There's no theater. There's no you have to do it this way regimen. It's how do you want to do it? How do you want to taste it? If you want somebody to make comments to you, they will tell you what they take taste. I mean, tasting with any of the wrestlers has always really been good.

Eddie always says they're all good.

Right. Well, yeah, Jimmy says, you know, there's not a bad barrel in the warehouse. So what you know, what's the problem? You're just going to take the first take whatever. But and that's that's good because but if you ask, they will give you their opinions. And like I said, we've been fortunate enough over the last few years that Eddie knows He's already bet which barrel I'm going to buy half the time. He just goes, I know you're going to like this one. Because we've learned that we have a very similar taste profile, which is fun too. So that one I think is the most welcoming and most fascinating from that standpoint. Any other picks that kind of stick out in your mind? At the new Old Forester distilleries, I have to give a plug. That's sort of always been my favorite go-to bourbon when people ask. I said, you're never going to go wrong drinking a bottle of Old Forester, particularly the 100 proof, period. It's one of my wife's favorites, actually. But at the new facility, I mean, it used to be fun to go over to the main campus down there, and they had a nice little tasting station set up there with Brown Foreman. Excuse me. It's always theater. So that's even even more interesting. But so at the new facility, it's really neat because it is really theater now because right in the middle of their new barrel warehouse, they've got this platform in the middle of the warehouse. I mean, right. So like hanging out into into the still area, you know, into the area where, you know, and right in the middle of the barrel warehouse, platform. They have barrels sitting right there. They have a tasting table and glassware. It's stunningly spectacular. And if you've never picked with Jackie Zakian before, that is its own reward. She's candid, real, lots of fun to taste whiskey with. Again, don't like it, let's go find something else. And that's just a great, I mean, it's a visually stunning experience. It's just, Plus, it's just a lot of fun.

Now, Jackie is their master taster. Yes.

OK. You know, she brings a breath of fresh air into a very, you know, state program, you know, from that standpoint. I mean, those are the that's one of my more fun ones than doing that. I mean, I love going. I mean, I like going to on site visits because you always I always learn something new. I mean, in the past when we would, of course we got one distillery in trouble, and my favorite is in the old days at Buffalo Trace, we're over there picking barrels of one of our favorite picks all times was our Eagle Rare picks. Barrel 168 and 162, find those, those are really good. But we were literally going into the different warehouses, up into the floors, shimming in between barrels with a drill, and poking whiskey right out of the barrel.

That's fun. I've actually done that with Chris and Elizabeth over at Woodford. And anytime you can get up in amongst the barrels and the drill and just stick the glass there, I'm like, that's an experience.

They don't really support much of that anymore, right?

Oh, no. They cited ocean and some other things after that, after that particular pick. And now they have a nice, In their only, you know, non-brick warehouse, you know, the warehouse age where all of the Blanton's ages, you know, now, the metal-clad warehouse, and they have a nice tasting area right there where they bring the barrels to you, and then you, you know, thief them there. And it's still a good experience, but it wasn't as much fun as literally... Crawling around getting dirty.

What about Four Roses? I haven't been to a Four Roses pick before.

Four Roses, 2017 was our banner year for Four Roses. We did 13 barrels for Four Roses that year. In the beginning, they used to roll out all 10, if you know anything about Four Roses, all their whiskey is based on 10 different mash bills. There's five yeast strains, two traditional mash bills. So a high rye and a heavy sweet corn recipe. So in the early days, you know, 10 and 11 and 12, 13, 14, they'd have all 10 marshmallows available. So you would, you know, taste through, you know, get the opportunity to taste through all 10. And that was always a fun experience too. Now, if you get seven different ones, because the demand of the whiskey has gotten so high, and they have to use all 10 to make what we used to call yellow label, which is no longer yellow label, but traditional four roses, all tend to have to be in there. So if they don't make all of them in equal proportions, they make certain, there's only certain limited ones, like the O's and the Q's tend to be really hard to come by on a regular basis. I think this last time F's were almost, the O, Q, and F stands for the yeast strand at that particular time. So weren't as readily available. That always was a fun experience. Now, what Mandy, who runs the Barrel Program, does now is she's gotten tired of groups that come in and only want to pick a match bill or only on age statement because there are groups that pick strictly on that. I'm just pure hedonist. It's got to sing to me and it's got to be damn tasty. I don't care how old, young, whatever it is, it's got to be really good. And if it doesn't? We've passed before. It's hard for people to believe that you actually pass on a barrel, but we've passed on saying, today there's nothing that really rings my bell.

Now, when you say that, do they run out and get you another barrel?

Some do. For the most part, we've been very fortunate because now In the early days, yeah, it was like, no, we have to go find something. It's like, well, wait a minute. Let's go look and see if we can do it. But again, those were the days you're crawling around the warehouse and you do that. We just did that at Willett last year, too, where we crawled. I mean, didn't like that one. OK, so he goes. Really? And then Drew goes and we go get, try something else, you know? And then he says, why don't you try this marshmallow? So yes, they will do that. But at Four Roses, what they're doing now is they turn all the barrel heads around against the wall. So you can't see age statement. You can't see Mash Bill. And I think that's the way it should be anyway. Well, I do too. But again, Mike Feets wrote a real interesting blog just recently, local writer and bourbon historian. He wrote this article about single barrel selections. And he said one chain particularly say to him, we only buy it on age because it doesn't matter because it's the only thing people care about. And if you've tasted some of their whiskeys, you can tell that some people don't care. So from that standpoint, that's fascinating in its own right. Heaven Hill is still a good warehouse experience to go through. Knob Creek. Knob Creek. I mean, those guys did a wonderful job of giving you some really good selections. if you're there for a daily double, so to speak, where you're picking a bourbon and a rye, that's a lot of fun. That's another place where we had one round and said, nope, don't like any of these three whatsoever. Grant, who runs the program now, looks at me and goes, really? And he tasted it and goes, I agree. So let's go find three more. And that's

Now Knob Creek is one of those picks where a lot of people tend to gravitate towards the 15 years because they know it and it may not be the best barrel.

Right. And we've had that happen to us, you know. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's some times you look for that and then like yesterday, one of my favorites is like you find that really short barrel. Four Roses one time, we picked this one barrel that was just, we got 60 bottles out of. And I will tell you that was one of the best barrels of whiskey we've ever picked. People that have tasted it will still rave about it. Yesterday, Wild Turkey, we got one that Immediately, as soon as he started sloshing it, and when he couldn't get the thief deep enough to get anything out to begin with, we were like, uh-oh. And when we finally moved it around a little bit and sloshed it and got some whiskey out of it, as soon as it hit the glass, everybody knew on the nose and tasted it. It was phenomenal. We said, we're taking that one now. Whatever else we're doing, we want that one today. That's the only time probably that my prejudice will kick in on the short barrels, because you can really get some good whiskey. We tasted one up at New Riff when they were still doing the LKI label, and Jay Erisman and I were in there, and we had this one barrel. Literally, he said, we might get 20 bottles out of this. And ultimately he said he tried to, he wouldn't let me have it only because he said because in those times when they're doing their little hand, they just had a hand bottling machine. I mean just three bottles at a time. He said the filter wouldn't be able to handle all the char and that little bit of whiskey. I did leave with a pint, or I didn't leave with anything, but I did have a bottle of that that went home to drink because it was really, really, really good whiskey. Everybody's experience is a little different. Occasionally, you have to get samples sent to you because, like we did with the grass widow we just tasted, we didn't drive to Detroit to taste it, but the whiskey was really good. We've done that with Nelson's Greenbrier. Charlie brought whiskey for us to taste, that type of routine. And occasionally, it's what you just have to do. But the best experience is actually go to the place and experience everything. Learn, listen, because that's really what the whole key thing is. Every time I go to a distillery to do a pick, I learn something new about something they've been doing.

So if I'm going for my first pick, this is some of the advice that you would give me when I go for my first barrel pick? Because I've never been on one yet, you know, and there's, I'm sure there's been, you know, people listening to us that never have either. So what advice, what, you know, is there a particular thing I need to follow or what would you suggest to me if I'm going on my first barrel pick?

I had a gentleman yesterday with us, his first barrel pick ever and a good customer and has another little bourbon grip that we drink whiskey with. And he asked me the same thing. And I said, make sure you have some water, a notebook, and a pen, and an open mat. And then just go be marveled. I mean, just taste, talk, and just enjoy it. Don't go looking for something. but a good time and an opportunity to taste something really fun.

Right. And you know, I think regardless of whether somebody, if they're new to this and whether or not they can pick out notes in a bourbon is one thing, but they know what they like. Exactly. And as they taste it, they say, that's good. That's sweet. That's smooth. You know, whatever terminology they're at in their journey, you know, they just need to pay attention to what their own palate tells them.

The minute I walk in a rick house, though, just the smell. All of a sudden it puts me in the mood. I don't know if that's the right way to say it.

It just puts me in the mood. And that's the port. That's the fun part of going. That's why I say going on the visits are really important, you know, from that standpoint, because you're already, you're already experienced the first level of hospitality. You've been welcomed into somebody's home. And by going into that wreck house or going to that distillery, you've come into someone's home. And how inviting are they during the process or how closed are they during the process tells you a lot about what you're going to get into.

I didn't think about that. That's true. You're kind of going into the inter-sync. Okay, well, here's my house, but I'm going to bring you into this part right here. This is where the magic happens. Yeah.

So can you take a minute and talk about some of the picks you have on the shelves right now? Some of the ones you currently have up front and you're introducing to your customers? some of the things maybe that you've got coming in real soon, maybe in the next month or two?

Well, right now we have the Grass Widow and the Kentucky Spirit that we've tasted today. We have a Russell's Reserve that we picked back in January that's still one of my favorite overall brands to pick.

And that's a Camp Nelson?

Yeah, this happened to be another Camp Nelson barrel too. Then we also have a Woodford Double Oaked that Since they've gone to the profile selection aspect, this one rocked me. I mean, the first time we revisited after they started the program out, I was like, OK. And it was OK. But now, once you're starting to learn the program again, this is a rocking glass of bourbon. Got a few bottles left of a Maker's Mark selection we did with Maker's Private Selection is another one I didn't mention in terms of great experiences. a great experience to pick your number of staves to create your own perfect version of Maker's Mark. So we did one with Butchertown Grocery just recently. We have some of that left at the moment. One of my favorites is the Old Forrester program, like I mentioned earlier. We have a current Old Forrester that's just damn yummy. I just really, really enjoy that. And the Woodford personal selection, I will have to give a little shout out on that one too. Personal selection is a two barrel batch, true small batch bourbon. And at first, when they first said, do you want to do this program? I was like, I'm going, nah, I'm not too thrilled about the idea. You thought maybe gimmicky or? Yeah, I mean, because I wanted a single barrel of Woodford. OK. OK. I was already in my snobby appeal about everything has to be single barrel. So Chris Morris said, no, you just come. And so he did it with me. He took me through the program. And you get six different barrels of whiskey. You smell them, taste them, and then you put them together. And we've always had, when you did barrel selections, we've always gone through these statements that if I could have this nose and this taste, it would be an exceptional whiskey.

I get that, yeah.

OK, so you go in these barrel selections and you get this. So the two barrel batch goes. you understand now the additive and subtractive effects of putting two barrels together. You have this thing that's got an incredible nose, you've got this mouth that's just incredibly put them together and it becomes bitter and tannic. Not always, but I'm saying you go, what the hell just happened? You know, type of routine.

You don't get the best of both. Right.

So you learn what the challenge that the master tasters and the master blunders and the master stillers have to go through to put together a batch. doesn't always work the way you think intuitively it will. So it really depends upon the palette again, and the art. It made this a very right-brained experience for me. You understand the science over here in the left-hand side. You understand everything they're doing, mechanically, physically, to manipulate and do all this. But really what it comes down to is your right brain's got to become engaged to make it work. It's got to taste good.

So how many blends do you go through in this process?

Well, ultimately, because you have six and you're combined two, you end up with four different choices when it's all said and done. And it just boils down to, and again, very rarely have we gotten to the point. We did have one round one time we did. There were two groups going on. And our six barrel combinations just didn't work out. And we went over to the other table, and it worked out a hell of a lot better. So then we started arm wrestling. Who gets that barrel? So that's a great experience in its own right. I forget to mention those. When we talk about the more traditional styles, those are two programs that are just you need to experience at one time because it really energizes a whole different part of your brain and a whole different respect for what everybody does in the business. Right.

Well, I think you've given us kind of a good overview and certainly the listeners who have sort of have the desire to go on a pick someday. I've learned a little bit about each of the distilleries and what they offer. I think the few that I've been on have all been great experiences. Barrel picks are always good. And you take with you, obviously, some pallets from your staff here that you trust, and you probably invite some customers along as well.

A combination thereof. We have a group of regulars that like to go with us because we trust their palates and their counter foils. To point now, I know when one of the guys goes with me, like yesterday, I said, that's a Bob Burrell right away. And it was. It lit his eyes up big time, first and foremost. Yeah, but then it's a balance. It's a way to, it's a way to argue and talk and discuss, you know, to find that because I like people to challenge me because saying, my daughter is our spirits buyer, Emily, and she when she goes on pics with me, she's always like, No, I'm over here. Why are you over here? So that we can say, ultimately, what's the right barrel to go? Because you get jaded sometimes, too. We do have a house style. I'm proud of our style of whiskey. But every once in a while, I'll pick something. Somebody goes, I mean, that's totally off the wall for you. You've never picked something that big or bold or spicy. I said, today it was the best barrel there.

So in general, are you picking barrels that you feel appeal to the widest selection of your customer base or are you looking for something unique or a little of both?

I follow the rule that Chris Morris told me years ago when picking a barrel. He said, if you're picking a barrel of wood, or in this case it was for old Forester, he said, why pick old Forester that I have on the shelf? Pick something that it says something to you that's different. And it speaks to you differently. So we always look at that first. What's the best barrel at that time you're tasting? Then the second piece is we have a style. And now it's to the point where I don't pick for the masses. I pick because I like it. And I've been fortunate that now we have customers that like my style. I'm a sweet up front cream guy. I didn't get to be this size without eating a lot of sweet up cream. that richness, that roundness, that lushness that a whiskey has, but it's got to have good structure and good spice. That's an important thing. We have a house style and people come, I think, to buy when we put a barrel out now because they know there's going to be those elements there. And every once in a while, I'll pick a really bold, big, rich, spicy one. But then right underneath that is this incredible, lush, rich style. It's sort of like when we tasted the Spirit a few minutes ago. It comes across pretty big and bold right up front. That nose and everything was like, oh. But then, as I said, you taste it that second time, and all of a sudden, it just rounds out.

It rounds that corner nice there.

There you go, Randy.

It rounds that corner.

Of course, we've had an excellent time with you here today, but we want to give you an opportunity to let everybody know where you are, how to get a hold of you.

Social media, that kind of thing. Maybe how to get in the bourbon steward program.

Well, thank you. First of all, it's been a lot of fun here, too. And as my wife says, you like to talk, so it's easy to do from that standpoint. We've just celebrated our 11th anniversary this past weekend. We're in the Westport Village Shopping Center here in Louisville, Kentucky, just outside of the Waterston Expressway. You can reach us from our phone number at 502-708-1313, WestportWhiskeyandWine.com, or on Instagram. There is a Twitter account. I'm not a Twitter person, but it's just an automatic feed. On Facebook, if you want to sign up to get our newsletter every Monday, we put out an event-driven newsletter. It tells you what's happening for the next two weeks in the store. You can sign up for events online. We also have a phone app that you can download at both Play stores and the Apple store. I encourage people to sign up for our phone app because when we have a new release of something, it goes out on the phone app before it goes out on anything else. That way, customers that are very serious about supporting the store by downloading a phone app, they get first notice of a new barrel coming out. And we take phone reservations from those people, where once it's gone up online, the time it hits Facebook, it could be already gone. Or we won't even put it up. So all of those ways that you can get in touch and follow what we try to do, again, Those are our basic social media platforms. I mean, I know there's Monday's newsletter for events. Wednesday, we do one that talks about we have a product feature. And then if we get a new barrel out, then we might put an email out specifically about that on a Friday. But those are our basic regular media-driven platforms.

And you do a video about your flights each week?

Yeah, each week. And that'll get loaded into the Monday event-driven email. The flights start on Sunday. And then Stephen's video is the lead on every Monday morning's email feed, as well as all the other platforms. But that's a good way to find out what we're tasting that week, what events. You want to sign up for something, take a class, like the bourbon steward class. We put all that information out that way. And then it's just posted online.

And if somebody's visiting Louisville to take some bourbon tours or to go to a distillery in or around Louisville, and they're limited on time, this is a great place to stop to find a unique and flavorful bottle, I would say.

We appreciate that. We're also supporters of the Kentucky Distillery Association. And if you get on their site, though, when you're planning your bourbon trail experience there, you'll find a way to find us because we're on that as well as a place to come and take a look. That's great.

Sounds good. Well, we appreciate you being on the show, Chris.

Well, thank you for the opportunity.

A lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you. We do appreciate all of our listeners and we'd like to thank you for taking time out of your day to hang out with us here on the Bourbon Road. We hope you enjoyed today's show, and if so, we would appreciate if you'd subscribe and rate us a five star with a review on iTunes. Make sure you follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, at The Bourbon Road. That way you'll be kept in the loop on all the Bourbon Road happenings. You can also visit our website at thebourbonroad.com to read our blog, listen to the show, or reach out to us directly. We always welcome comments or suggestions, and if you have an idea for a particular guest or topic, be sure to let us know. And again, thanks for hanging out with us.