299. Starward Australian Whisky

Welcome to another trip down the Bourbon Road with your hosts Jim and Mike. So grab a glass of your favorite bourbon and kick back.

Hey this is Big Chief and you're listening to the Bourbon Road. You know what I love to pour in my old fashions? Is a little maple syrup. It can't be just any maple syrup. It has to be from seldom seen farms up in Ohio. He takes bourbon barrels. pours his syrup in there and ages it for six to nine months, making for some delicious, just some delicious syrup that you could pour on pancakes. You can pour it on waffles, chicken and waffles like this fat guy likes. But seriously, you want to make a delicious cocktail with some maple syrup and not that old simple syrup. Check out seldom see maple dot com. Pick up some stuff from there today. We'd appreciate it.

Hello, everybody. I'm Jim Shannon. And I'm Mike Hyatt. And this is The Bourbon Road. And today, Mike, it's a wonderful day in the whiskey world because we have our first Australian whiskey in the house. Well, not our first Australian whiskey, is it?

Our first Australian whiskey guest.

That's right. Our first Australian whiskey guest.

And who do we have with us? Jim, we got Dave Vitelli from Starward Whiskey. He's the owner, the founder of this beautiful whiskey out of Melbourne, Australia. Dave, welcome to the Bourbon Road.

Thank you so much. It's kind of a privilege to be on a show that has bourbon in the title. You know, I'm a huge fan of whiskey spelled both ways around the world and I have to say there's a lot of There's a lot of bourbon inspiration in starwood, you know, kind of shamelessly stolen from around the world to make this great Aussie whiskey.

Well, we certainly like to take a sort of a side road every now and then on the Bourbon Road. We're not absolutely tied to Bourbon. It is sort of the namesake of the show, but Mike and I will take many little side roads during the year and we'll venture into Irish whiskey, Scotch. Certainly now we'd love to have a little bit of Australian whiskey. We certainly welcome you to the show. We welcome your whiskey to a show. We've got a new friend now. We've got to sit down and drink a little bit of your whiskey. We're pretty excited.

Sounds great. Dave, I got to tell you, we have a listener down in Australia and he is a super fan of yours. Uh, his name's James Ewan and he's the one that pointed us in your direction. He's been trying to get you guys on our show forever. So hats off to James there in Australia. James, we know you're one of our most loyal listeners, and that's pretty exciting to have a listener down in Australia. I cared this much about an Australian whiskey to get them on a bourbon podcast.

That is awesome. I'll have to look him up when I'm next in Australia and shout him a drink.

So what's the first whiskey we got in our glass, Dave?

Yeah, the first whiskey is called Twofold. It's a weeded whiskey. We know what wheat does to great bourbons and it's the same sort of inspiration for me. It's a mixture of wheat and single malt whiskey married together. All of Starwood's whiskies are aged in red wine barrels. So all of them are full maturation in big Aussie red wine barrels. Shiraz, Cabernet, and Pinot. And so I love twofold. It's my breakfast whiskey because I just feel like it's one of those ones that's easy, round. It's quite exciting to have something that sits at this price point in the United States that really moves the dial when it comes to flavor, but doing it in a really accessible way.

Now you mentioned breakfast whiskey there. That's kind of a new term for me.

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, obviously we're all familiar with the after dinner whiskey, the whiskey by the campfire, the whiskey with food, which certainly does really well. But, you know, one of the things that like I, um, get excited with twofold about is this idea that, you know, it's really, Approachable and easy to drink and if you are that way inclined, not that we're always promoting responsible service of alcohol, but if you're that way inclined, this would be the perfect match for some oatmeal.

So if you're going to grab a bottle early in the morning with your bowl of oatmeal, this is the one to grab, right?

This is the one. This is the one. It's got a bit of fruit in it from the wine characters. It's got that wheat cereal character coming through that really is a lovely compliment to those fruity characteristics. And then because we're using both wheat and single malt whiskey together, the single malt gives it a real roundness and lusciousness in the mouth and the length to it as well. So to me, it does all of those things really well as a sipping whiskey, obviously, but then if you wanted to mix it, if you wanted to stir it down in a classic cocktail or take it for a walk, say in a highball or something a bit more refreshing, then it's going to stack up to that because of the aging process that we use.

I gotta say, quite beautiful expression. Dave, I am the hugest fan of anything with weed in it. I get the breakfast notes in this. I could definitely knock the dust off my palate first thing in the morning with this if I was trekking across to Australia, like our good friend James over there just did. I can see the dust rolling up and you're like, man, I need a little sip this morning to get a little pep in my step. And this would have it right here.

Yeah. And look, you know, 80 proof. So we're not trying to kind of poke you in the eyes and say, hi, I'm an Australian whiskey. You know, like it is supposed to be something that's sessionable. You know, I think great whiskeys from around the world. talk to the place they're made. The ingredients are such a big part of that. And certainly with Starwood, that wheat and malted barley, they grow within a day's drive to the distillery, as do these amazing wine barrels that we're able to source to age the whisky. And so to me, if we want to be in the sharing cabinet at home, in everyone's home, there's got to be approachable and something that is going to be inviting to people to give a go and not just say, okay, well, I gave that, you know, this is not like a 120 proof, you know, single barrel rye, you know, that's going to be big and intense and very distinctive. And don't get me wrong, I love those sorts of barrels, but this is not that occasion. This is, hey, you know what, if you like, like a weeded whiskey, you should try this. If you like a bourbon, you should give this a go. If you like some Irish whiskey, I think you're going to find this enjoyable. It's not trying to alienate people. It's actually trying to bring people into whiskey that might not even know they like it yet. That's the dream, obviously, but certainly amongst whiskey lovers, we want this on their shelf as something that they can point to and say, you got to give this a go.

Yeah, as I sip on this, a couple of notes. For me, upfront, very soft, very sweet. Well, not very sweet. Nice and sweet, I think is a better word for it. But definitely soft. It kind of sneaks across your palate. and doesn't really interrupt the enjoyment of the whiskey. It's kind of light and it dances across and doesn't leave a big bunch of footprints across your tongue. It's definitely sessionable and I think this is an all season whiskey. You could definitely enjoy this in hotter weather and be fine with it.

Yeah. And that's something that I think that for... Sessionables, the perfect word that Jim... I've got a bit of a... The origins of Starwood actually were... This is supposed to be a microbrewery. It's a whole heap bigger than that now. But I was a frustrated home brewer and was in tech beforehand and sold that business and then decided to look at whiskey and Well, actually beer was first and I wanted to become an organic microbrewery from Australia. The challenge with beer is obviously good beer doesn't travel well, particularly if you're not going to pasteurize it or process it or add preservatives. we wouldn't be talking now and we certainly wouldn't be sharing that whiskey. 15 years ago, the idea of cold refrigeration with beer is just not a thing. I took that beer mindset though into whisky making and thought about session ability and the idea that, do you know what? 10 years ago, this is back in 2002, certainly in Australia, in the mid-90s, thinking about the cornucopia of micro-brewed beers was very different to what we see today. There's so much more available. And I thought, well, if a craft beer drinker can get their head around craft beer, then they're one step away from understanding all the things that make like great whiskeys, so interesting. And from a Bourbon point of view, early 2000s, it was really Jim and Jack that dominated. Then slowly, we started to see things like Woodford Reserve turn up. Slowly, we saw Buffalo Trace turn up. Slowly, we saw that next wave of trade-up bourbons that have existed and people gravitated to them really quickly. That gave me confidence to say, well, if we can trade up into the more interesting bourbons and by no means are they luxury or you know, premium, they're just well-crafted whiskies, right? And so to me it was like, if people can kind of get their head around well-crafted American whiskies, there's no reason why they can't get their head around well-crafted Australian whiskies too.

Mike, what do you think about this whiskey in the hands of a true whiskey novice, somebody who hasn't really had a chance to taste whiskey before? This is their first glass. What do you think about that?

I think it's a great gateway whiskey. We've talked about that before, having a gateway whiskey. The price point here in America is just amazing. $27, I think you can get it for a total wine. So there's that first piece right there. Is it affordable for your blue collar guy, blue collar woman? Is it the right proof? I think 80 proof is that entry point for most people when they're first starting to drink whiskey. You don't want to blow their palette away with, like you said, Dave, 120 something proof. And then does it have those wine notes to it, that soft palate it has on it? You need all that to open somebody's mind up and be able to explain to them. And I think that has all this with it. Just a tingle of spice to let you know, hey, I'm a whiskey. I like that. It's kind of dancing on my tongue, just like maybe a little bit of a jalapeno zest to it, to me. But yeah, just a beautiful gateway whiskey, Jim.

Yeah, I tend to agree, Mike. I tend to agree completely. Now, you mind if we dive a little bit into the science here, Dave?

Sure.

I'd like to know a little bit more about sort of the Australian whiskey category. You're smack dab in the middle of it. You know, what makes an Australian whiskey?

We have, I think, the broadest whiskey regulations in the world. I mean, they're so broad you could shoot a cannon through them and still not hit the sides. It's just basically very straightforward definition of whiskey. It's a fermented grain mash that's distilled and aged in wood for a minimum of two years. Oh no, and has all the characteristics of whiskey. So it's a self-referent, this is legal. To me, that's the ultimate pub test, right? It's like, you know what, if you can kind of cover off on those key things and the guys and girls down at the pub have a glass of your whiskey and they call it a whiskey, then it's a whiskey. You kept it really broad and the benefit of that obviously is innovation. We can use these wine barrels in a way that bourbon has got to be aged in brand new American oak. It might be finished in something. I think Angel's Emmys have done a great job of bringing people's attention to finishes. And that's amazing. But the full aging in red wine barrels is a big innovation for Starwood. And it's something that I think means that this is a whiskey that can only be made in Australia. And that's an exciting thing. Because all of a sudden, we've got as Mike was saying this really good, amazing gateway whiskey that is sessionable, that's really approachable, but distinctive as well. It's not trying to do what bourbon does. It's not trying to do what Irish does. It's not trying to do what Scotch does. But in their own ways, they're really distinctive whiskies. And so is this because of those wine barrels. And so when we talk about the Australian category, I would take the keys to pretty much every whiskey distillery in Australia, such as the quality coming out of Australia from a whiskey standpoint. We lead the charge only because we're crazy to come over to the United States, number one. Secondly, we've got a lot of inventory. From when I started back in 2007, my ambition was to create something that could be on everybody's back bar at home and in bars and restaurants around the world. And so we've laid away substantially more whiskey. That means that we're available in more countries around the world and more states in the United States than other Australian distilleries. But, you know, that's not for any other reason. But, you know, they're still you know, plotting away, laying away whiskey. And I think the fact that we've had such a great amount of interest in the United States means that you're going to be seeing way more of Australian whiskey in the United States over time, which is exciting.

Dave, what's the, what's the breakdown on the mash bill on this? Can you tell us that?

Yeah. So it's 60% wheat. which is separately distilled. So it's 100% wheat spirit, distilled and aged in red wine barrels. And then 100% barley, single malt, that's separately distilled, aged in red wine barrels. And then at the end, we marry them 60-40, 60% wheat, 40% malted barley. And the idea behind that is exactly that approachable, easy, any time, any place whiskey.

That, that's something unique. I haven't, I don't think I've experienced before is something that's a 100%, 100% and you, you blend them like that. I probably have, but, um, very unique process. What do you think, Jim?

Yeah, I think so. So as this is an Australian whiskey considered straight at two years.

Um, no, it's considered whiskey. Like you can't call it whiskey until it's a minimum of two years of age.

Okay. So in the U S we call it straight at two years.

Yeah.

But in Australia, it's whiskey at two years.

Yeah, it's whiskey or two years. So anything younger than that is like white dog. You know, it's just not considered whiskey. And then from two years onwards, it's just whiskey. And then you can choose to put an age statement on it or not. And it's kind of interesting. One of the things that I found fascinating coming to the States was that like, age really wasn't a big deal for a very long time, right? Like as long as people got to four years in a day, they didn't necessarily have to put the age on the label, right? And that was something that to me sort of I got excited about because aging whiskey in Melbourne, What we're drinking now is three to four Melbourne years old. We'll talk about what a Melbourne year is in a sec. But it's three to four years of age. And in 2007, launching a brand, a craft whiskey with a young age statement is a high stakes game. I think We've all experienced the fast and furious whiskeys. People were really keen to get whisky out into people's palates and then, I think over time, learned that it needed more time to get to a point of which it was in balance. And the spirit and the oak and if there was a finish, the previous use were in balance. And in Melbourne, three to four Melbourne years is just the just right amount of time for us. We've got the outback, as Mike mentioned before, we've got these hot, blazing winds that come in from the north into Melbourne. And it can be, in Fahrenheit, 95, 105 degrees dry, really hot, dry weather, thick Texas, right? And then within an hour, the wind can kind of shift to the south, and there's the other desert down below us called Antarctica. And so if the wind's coming in from the south or across the Southern Ocean, you can go from 95 to 45 within an hour easily, within 20 minutes sometimes. And that temperature, that diurnal range that we have in Melbourne means that these barrels are working really hard. They're working really hard. And the magic for us is that because we're using wine barrels, These haven't been charred by the way, right? It's wine out, whiskey in. Some of them charred, but the majority of them are wet-filled barrels. And so it's a relatively soft whiskey on the oak side of things if you think about that, because we haven't charred them. But all of that, what we would normally call extractive wood components, is in the wine. That's why winemakers are using the barrels. It's to give the wine structure so it can sell for years and years and years. And so having access to those wine barrels that are both French oak and American oak, 100 litres in size, 200 litres in size, which is typically a standard American barrel, and sometimes 300 litres in size means that we've got this huge array of diversity in the bond store. And then we age our whisky, the wheat spirit in that and the and the single malt spirit in that and then blend them together at the end. So blending is a big part of the Starwood store. The wood policy obviously is a big part of it, but blending for consistency is a big part of it as well.

So you've been putting up barrels since 2007. We're in 2022. Do some quick math here. It's 15 years. And during that period of time, you've been able to stock away some inventory. But have you been able to stock away a little bit of aging inventory, things that are extra aged or well-aged? And what does that mean in Australia? Does it mean like it gets overly out or it gets too much?

It's a good question, Jim. The short answer is yes. I'll never forget filling barrel one. the first ever barrel we filled at the distillery and it was like, okay, let's be thoughtful about this. We're going to go larger format, less extractive wood, because it's probably something that we will tap in 20, 30, 40, 50 years time to celebrate some milestone. By year six, it was cooked any longer and it just would have turned what was something really sentimentally very special to me into something that would have tasted, always tasted great because, you know, like your kids, you always find the, you know, why they're special, but objectively just would have been overdone on the oak side of things. And so even barrel one, we've de-scorched and put into class. We're still waiting for that momentous occasion to share it with people, but there's no such thing as an old Starwood barrel. You know, like seven years, it's probably the oldest we've launched. Partly early on because we just couldn't keep up with demand. But even now, just from a thoughtful point of view, there's no good reason to do it. There's no good reason to do it because we can... so many other levers to kind of get that intensity of oak if we really wanted in there or to mellow the whiskey out. The time for us is a relative thing. It's not necessarily the same as you would expect in a, you know, certainly in a Scotch whiskey distillery where it's just cold and damp. You know, the old sayings, there's two seasons. in Scotland, June and winter. I'm talking to you guys, you know better than anyone, you've got four distinct seasons. It can get below freezing quite easily and snow, but you'll be sweating bullets next week in the heart of August. It's very different for us. We don't get the extremes you get in Kentucky in terms of snowing. It doesn't get that cold. It certainly gets up into the hundreds and we've got equal parts humidity and dryness. That means it's a really balanced sort of aging environment.

The more I look at this whiskey, the more I taste it and stuff. I was thinking tropical fruits and that tingly, I get on my tongue a little bit, a little bit of Kiwi in there. I know that's Kiwi Australian, but Kiwi fruit to me has that tingly like needles on your tongue a little bit. Does that make sense?

It certainly does. There's a lot of meat palate texture to Starwood that comes from the barrels. And actually, as we were just saying, all of the wood's been extracted out. I mean, it's still lots of color in the whiskey, right? Like, it's not like, oh, you can't see my whiskey. There's plenty of color there. But it's not it's not really the the the extractive wood that's kind of giving that mid palette texture. It's actually the grape, it's grape tannin. You know, it's red wine texture in the middle. You don't have to love wine to love starwood, by the way. You know, like it's just kind of a, you know, good little cues to kind of help you pick out some of the flavors. But tropical fruits, absolutely. That's coming from fermentation with our single malt, which we'll talk about later. I'll explain in more detail there. Lots of tropical fruit in starwood, sort of in our DNA. Um, I get a little bit of, um, uh, rock melon, um, kind of character coming through as well. So Dave, what's a, what's a rock melon? It's catalog.

Oh, so it's in Australia. You guys call it something totally different. So I couldn't go down there and say, let me get me some of that cantaloupe. And they'd be like, well, we only have rock melon.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's pretty diverse down in, in, in Melbourne now, particularly like, um, we've got all walks of life down there. So I'll pick that up.

I could get a little bit of cantaloupe in this Jim or rock melon.

Yeah. I think there's a little bit of melon note to it. No doubt about it. So, so all the headache left with the wine and it just left a little bit of its goodness behind to help with the whiskey. So that's good thing. You know, I sometimes when I drink red wine and lots of it, and it happens from time to time, Mike, Melody is a big wine drinker and I think Viv is too, right? Yep, yep. Drink a little bit of that red wine, you start to get that headache. But in this case, I think all the headache went out with the red wine and these barrels just introduced that goodness into the whiskey.

I'm not one of those guys that gets a headache with red wine. I could just drink bottle by bottle and just be fine with it. So I don't know what these headaches these guys are talking about. They're just complaining. Just drink more and you'll be fine.

Keep going. Yeah. You know, I think the other point you mentioned there was like just that, yes, there's lots of fruit characters, right? And oak texture coming through from the wine barrels. It's one of those whiskies, all of them in fact kind of reward loyalty. They are whiskies where you can pour three fingers, set up something on Netflix and episode one of what you're drinking is gonna be really different to episode six, not just because you've kind of plowed through it, but because the more time you spend with the whiskies, the more those layers of complexity between the wine barrels, the wheat, the malt really kind of reveal themselves. And that's where I think the approachability, the lower proof really helps. This is probably going to get me kicked off the podcast, but quite often, If I've got an amazing single barrel and I'm tasting it, not drinking it, there's two different things here. If I'm tasting, if I'm doing a bit of a sensory analysis on a single cask, I'll cut it right back. I'll go 50-50. Because I actually know what booze tastes like. I know that. you know, like I kind of have, particularly if it's from a distillery that I'm familiar with, like the house spirits, more than likely going to be the same that's been filled into the barrel. I want to know what else is going on. And so water is a great magnifier of flavor. And it's fascinating to do that. I'm still on, right? You haven't kicked me off. No, you're good. But just magnifying all of the characters and flavors in the whiskey by adding water really gives you a sense of what's going on and what that relationship is between the spirit and the oak, and in our instance, that previous use, in a way that when you're drinking 120, even 115. There's a lot of booze there that's masking some of that deliciousness. And so we've done a bit of the work for you by proofing it down and then you can sit with this whiskey longer before your palate gets blown up and all those layers of flavor get revealed.

It's interesting that I heard you use the term booze a couple of times there, and it's kind of an international term that relates to whiskey, but it also has an interesting origin that deals with inebriation or, I guess, drinking a little too much, right?

Right.

So it's kind of an interesting thing. You don't hear it that often anymore, but I think it used to be more prominent 10, 15, 20 years ago, Mike. What do you think?

Yeah, I don't know. Some people say it's a derogatory. Sometimes when you say booze or a boozer, you know, the guy's going out boozing all the time. I guess that's why I hear it a lot. I don't hear, hey, I need to grab some booze. And maybe that is something like rock milling in different countries. You just don't hear it that much anymore.

Yeah. And we're all of the above too. I mean, you're totally right, Mark. It can be kind of perceived as derogatory. I guess my point is, I don't like to take our whiskeys too seriously. We're not saving the planet, making whisky. Almost literally, we're not saving the planet. But the point is that I don't like to take the product too seriously and just turn up on I wanted to turn up in people's houses on their terms as opposed to some sort of mandated way of drinking it or trying to give it too much reverence, even though all of these are double gold medal winning whiskeys from both in London and San Francisco and New York and all the places. That's great. But for me, What gets me up in the morning is people like James, badgering you guys to get us on the podcast. That's the real reward. You can't buy that. You can't buy that and that's worth way more than any kind of accolade that we get, which we've got plenty of them.

Yeah, to me, that is the kind of accolade you want right there from a pure whiskey drinker, a guy that we respect because he shows love for whiskey. Throughout the entire world, he's drinking all kinds of different whiskey. But yeah, that kind of accolade, like you said, you can't buy it. That's pure right there. It's not bought. It's a guy that just enjoys whiskey. And he said, hey, Jim and Mike, I'd really love for you guys to get Starward Whiskey on the show. And I'll hook you up with them and we'll figure this out. So, yeah, from almost two worlds away, really, because it is two worlds away. This whiskey shows up at our door and we get to drink it. And you were talking before about making cocktails out of this. And I noticed you guys sent us a tasting card and you have two cocktails on that tasting card for this twofold. One is a twofold and tonic. pretty easy to make. Starward two-fold, one ounce of that, 3.4 ounces, that's pretty accurate, of tonic water and one grapefruit wedge. That sounds like perfect for the summertime, right Jim?

It does. It absolutely doesn't. And that is pretty accurate measurement there getting into the 0.4. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's, I think what's happened is we've converted it from Australian mills, right?

Yeah.

So that's kind of just like the straight conversion.

And you probably asked the mixologist, she said, Hey, can we just round that up to something American? He's like, no, no, you can't.

Right. If you're going to do anything, you probably round it down to three, right? So it's three to one is the standard sort of like mixer to whiskey ratio anyway. Um, uh, in the Vitali house, it's probably more like two to one, you know, like we kind of like a little more, um, you know, whiskey forward. But the great thing about twofold and tonic is that it shouldn't work, right? Whiskey and tonic is not really something that's kind of we've known, um, as part of the sort of evolution of whiskey. Certainly high balls have been a big part of like this growth more recently. You know, we've been making whiskey in Australia since colonial times, little known fact. And there was a point in time where, you know, our gold rushes, the one on the West Coast in California and in Melbourne, my hometown, were kind of happening at the same time in the late 19th century, and people were carting ice from Massachusetts to Melbourne. Such was the opulence and richness of the city. They'd be carting ice from Massachusetts, the long way around. There's no Panama Canal or anything like that. Massachusetts to Melbourne, ice, and then using bubbles because that was the sign of prestige. Carbonated water was a fancy thing back in the day. And so they're making highballs back then, right? But tonic works because of the white balance, which is kind of a lovely compliment to it.

Well, well, the second one you have on here is and this is something that me and Jim just did a show on is two fold and ginger. That's something we really love anyways. But one ounce of this Star Wars two fold, three point four ounces of ginger ale and then an orange for garnish. Jim, that. We should have had that on our episode.

Yeah, that sounds pretty amazing. That does. I mean, I love a great cocktail and I'm always looking for that new formulation, that new recipe that's just going to knock my socks off. And, uh, I tell you what, I think whiskey companies in general. are at the forefront of innovation when it comes to cocktails. I love bartenders. I think they're great. I think they're wonderful, but I think a lot of the great cocktails are coming out of whiskey companies now.

Yeah. Look, I mean, I'm always kind of blown away by where bartenders take the whiskey. To me, it's like, Yes, it's a finished product that we can drink neat like this and we've done all the work to kind of express it this way. But then it's kind of like, well, you know what, you're now the director, here's the actor, put them to work and create some, you know, create some theater, right? And that's a lot of fun too, you know, that sort of mixology world. But coming back to what I said earlier, it's like, look, I just want easy to make cocktails. It makes great classic cocktails too. But to me, I want Twofold to be people's gateway whiskey. They might not even like whiskey, but if they come at it as a highball or with ginger or with tonic, they might go, well, you know what? I don't like whiskey, but I love this Twofold stuff. It's delicious. Off we go, right? And we've got it. And then they can kind of start with Twofold. And before you know it, they're trying some Maker's Mark. And then from Maker's Mark, they might go, who knows what? You know what I mean? And they kind of expand their repertoire on world of whiskey, which is really exciting.

Well, Dave, we're kind of up against a break here, so we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we're going to visit your Starward Nova expression and talk about it a little bit.

Oh, you're going to tell me. some of that seldom seen farms, maple syrup that's been aged in bourbon barrels. It is absolutely delicious. Not only in a cocktail, but you can cook with it, right?

You can, you absolutely can. Now, Mike, Kevin just sent me a new shipment. So I got a little bit more and I've been making some beef jerky lately. Really? Yeah. Now I know you're the meat master, but I tried my hand at it. I said, you know, I want to make some beef jerky and I've got a pretty decent beef jerky recipe and it's got a little bit of soy sauce, a little bit of Worcestershire, a little bit of, you know, onion powder, garlic powder, those kinds of things. But I always put brown sugar in it. Well, this time Kevin sent me a bottle of his granulated maple sugar. Wow. And I decided that I was going to substitute the maple sugar for the brown sugar. Oh, game changer. Let me tell you. Total game changer. Total game changer. Some of the best beef jerky you've ever had. So I'm going to make another batch here in about a week and I'll be sure to get you some.

Man, that sounds delicious. Vivian took, and we just got an air fryer like most people got these days, right? And she took and soaked fresh pineapple in that maple syrup and then put it in the air fryer. And it kind of crisp up a little bit. Oh, sounds good. It was just magically delicious. Um, and people probably wonder why we love it so much. Kevin competed in the maple festival last year, 2021, and he was named grand champion. Uh, that's saying something.

grand champion of the 2021 Maple Syrup Festival.

Yeah. Wow. That's saying something. Yeah. You're going up against some heavy hitters in maple syrup. And I know we're talking about just the syrup, but you know, that's something to be proud of. Hats off to you, Kevin. for winning that. Kevin's also competing in a couple other competitions. Make sure you check out his website. Check out his social media on Instagram and Facebook. You won't be disappointed. If you want to buy something from him, where can they go, Jim?

You can go to seldomseenmaple.com. and kevin and his crew they've got a great website very easy to navigate they've got all their products on there you can buy their maple syrup by the bottle you can buy by the case uh you can buy that sugar oh my goodness mike that stuff is so good and they've got some other gift sets there too so you definitely want to check it out

Well, he's also going to be in some distilleries pretty shortly here. Some distilleries that I love and I know you love. He's going to be down Leapers Fork. You could find his syrup down there, aged in their barrels. Trudy Oak down in Dripping Springs, Texas. I was just out there. His syrup's going to be there. Awesome. And at Garrison Brothers in Texas. If you think you love some maple syrup, make sure you go into Garrison Brothers and pick up a bottle from them also. Kevin, I appreciate it. I know he loves people. You're supporting a local farmer, a local product, a small family. This is no factory place that's putting out maple syrup, right, Jim? This is a good man doing good work. Yeah, gotta love it. Well, make sure you check out his site. Like Jim said, seldom see maple.com. Pick up a bottle today.

All right, listeners. So we are back. It's the second half. We've, uh, we've still got Dave on the show from starboard whiskey. And the first half we had their starboard twofold combination of, uh, uh, malt whiskey and a little bit of wheat whiskey. Mike got really tickled when he heard there was going to be some wheat whiskey on the show. It was, uh, it was tough not to pour another. Well, actually I did pour another little pour in the half. So, uh, I just wanted to have just a little bit more. Mike, you didn't have any left in your bottle, so you weren't able to pour anymore.

Yeah. I drink it every drop of that, of that wheat and barley together. Um, my Lord, um, I simply just loved it, Dave. I'm the biggest fan. Now I'm going to be searching for a bottle. I'm probably going to be searching for a bottle of something that's cast drink in that. But what we got in our glass right now, the Star Wars Nova, the nose on this is just, just out of this world. Is that why you called it Nova?

Nova, yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right? Like, whiskeys are typically people, places, or animals, you know? And so when we started Starwood, it was like, okay, if we're going to be a modern distillery, I can't go digging up some old distiller's bone and calling it my own and saying, you know, we're just the modern version of, you know, like a reincarnation of distilleries. Like, I want to talk about whiskey today and whiskey for the future that we can get really excited by. And in part because I'm so in love with the category of Scotch, Bourbon, Irish, Rye, as are many Australians. And so Nova, you know, Starwood and Nova were kind of ways that we could obviously talk about our ambition to, you know, reach for the stars, but then also Nova is new, you know, in Latin, but it also has a lovely kind of tie into that sort of celestial world as well. Um, and look, you know, it's really funny. These are both my kids. I love them equally, but I give you the tip like after a long day, sort of, uh, at the desk or at the distillery, there's nothing better than sort of like finishing it with, um, a glass of Nova. It's just such a really rewarding whiskey, you know, just in terms of all the things that we stand for as a, as a distillery. It's the single malt, so this is 100% malted barley. We're not Robinson Caruso with this. Obviously, there's a brand new category that's been launched in the United States with the TTB of American single malt. These guys are kindred spirits of Starwood. A lot of them started around about the same time. We might be a bit older than some of them, but we really approached whisky making with a brewing mindset. And so that means higher grades of malted barley, not distilling barley that's just kind of there to convert starch into sugar, but brewing barley is there for flavor. There's a big difference between a pale ale and a porter. They're both made from barley, but one's roasted a lot longer to give it more flavor. The barley that we have at Starwood is just a bit darker than a pale malt. It gives it luscious mouthfeel and texture. A bit more of that cereal character that we're talking about in twofold becomes a bit more prominent. But the fermentation is where this really shines. We talked about tropical fruits in in two-fold. Those tropical fruits come from fermentation in a single malt, interestingly. We use an ale yeast to ferment that malted barley. We're brewing like a beer and then distilling it like a single malt whisky, like a Scotch whisky, double pot distillations. In fact, just above my shoulder, there's the stills there. You can see them in the background of the of this shot here. There's one one neck there and another one there. And so double pot distillation with the single vault retaining all that lovely flavor and character. And, you know, in this modern era of whiskey making, you know, the philosophy is craft a spirit that is layered with flavor already. such that aging the whisky is going to be laddering up more flavor as opposed to settling the spirit down or transforming the spirit into something else, which traditionally in Scotch whisky, particularly with single malt was the way it worked. These spirits off the still weren't necessarily, let's just say that they're an acquired taste. modern era of whiskeys that think from a brewing mindset, they're like barley schnapps. They're just very drinkable spirits off the still. It's still at 71, or what's that, 142. But if you proof them down, they're bloody delicious. You can just drink them at that proofed down level without any aging. When you then ladder up all those amazing wine characteristics that we talked about beforehand, French oak, American oak, wet-filled or sometimes we'll have them shaved, toasted and recharged. 100 litre, 200 litre, 300 litre barrels. Some wineries use their barrels for one vintage. which means that they're really generous on the oak side, right, when we get them at the distillery. Others have had them for four or five vintages, so a little bit more delicate and balanced from the oak perspective. You put all of this together and you've got like a family tree of barrels that gives us a huge amount of complexity and diversity in the bond store. And even with Nova, the art really is in the blending of those different disparate barrels into one consistent release.

Do you find it challenging when you have such a variety of barrels coming in that you're going to use to actually maintain a profile?

Yeah, it's a good question. We're at a scale now that we've got depth of inventory. Early on, it was a challenge for sure because it's like, oh boy, we really need some French oak in this to lighten up the spirit. But there's just none of it that's ready yet because we're sort of scaling up. We've got depth of inventory now that means that we can kind of tap into these little types of barrels to use them almost like a spice rack to get the flavor dialed in every single time. It's actually playing to our advantage.

In this whiskey, Mike, I'm getting a nice stone fruit note, a little bit of a little bit of a buttery mouth feel, a little bit nicer texture. No, I shouldn't say nicer, a little bit more evident texture than I got in the twofold. So a little bit different. I feel like the There's something going on there with minerals, like a little bit more minerality to it, but that's just my personal take on it. I feel like there's a little bit of a mineral note here and I kind of like it.

I think you, uh, you hit everything spot on there, Jim, with this for me anyways, that buttery note to it. I'm surprised at how viscous this is, uh, for, um, just 82 proof on that super shocking to me, the sweetness of that barley coming through. Really liked it. Um, not a whole lot of spice on this for me. Um, but that's not a bad thing. Um, sometimes there can be too much spice. This right here is almost a dessert whiskey for me. Uh, I think that, that a red wine is coming through nice and pleasant on this and giving her that buttery note that you're talking about, Jim.

Yeah. So in, in the morning you're having a little bit of twofold and in the evening you're having a little bit of Nova. I think one is a little bit more upfront in the palette. The other one's a little bit more in the back of the palette. And I think those that are in the back of the paddle are a little bit more appropriate for the evening hours. Just my guess, my take on it.

Uh, it's a really good insight, Jim. Like, um, I find the same with our single monster sort of a bit more luscious, you know, and mouth coding and linger a bit longer. It's interesting, when we started the distillery, we started with single malts and then added twofold later on. And because that was always my ambition was to have that approachable, accessible, very distinctive whiskey that price would not be a reason why people didn't buy it. You know what I mean? I just wanted to eliminate that and say, look, what if it's not your cup of tea? That's fine in terms of flavor profile, but it wouldn't be because you couldn't afford it. So that's twofold. We've got a lot of rusted on Nova drinkers that just can't get their head around to false purpose in the portfolio because they just say, this is the perfect whiskey. Whereas I'm like, no, for me, this is the whiskey that gets me really excited because actually it's a little more approachable. And that's what wheat does, right? It rounds it out and creates some more space for all of those flavor cues to come through in a way that we know that they're really dense. And so different occasion for sure. And probably different drinker, truth be told, right? Like some people just like their whiskeys a little deeper and denser. And I'm really lucky enough to be able to have both of them anytime I want.

It's nice to be able to cover that spectrum and the question I would ask is, so you're enjoying Starward Nova after work in the evening, you're sitting on the front porch, you're having a pour, you're sitting with your friends, you're enjoying the evening, that's great, but what are you drinking for breakfast? You know, and that's the twofold for sure. It's like that all day long whiskey. You could have it on a early on a Saturday. Mike and I enjoy actually bourbon mimosas sometimes. And I'm thinking that twofold would make a fine bourbon mimosa on a Saturday morning. I think you're right. Well, I call it a bourbon mimosa, but it's not a bourbon, but still you get the idea.

The whiskey with the wire mimosa. Yeah. Uh, Dave, I, I really liked this, uh, Nova for the facts like Jim was talking about, but even that price point on a, um, a whiskey that's been finished in a wine, wine barrel, um, $50 at Total Wine. That is not still not breaking the bank. Um, for thinking outside the box, too, here for you whiskey drinkers that are listening and you want to try something totally different from around the world. I would push it towards the starward Nova and grab a bottle. I think you might be shocked at how well it drinks oily that viscous we're talking about. Just just velvety on the tongue. A couple of little chocolate notes in there, maybe from that red wine I'm getting. Just super tasty. Now, Dave, we were talking about the whiskey community and we got another guy here in Kentucky. His name is Tim Joyce and he is a super fan also. He has always been pushing towards, but he's into your single barrels. Tell us about your single barrel program.

Yeah, so as we've been talking about, these wine barrels are a gift to keep on giving. They're so unique in the world of whiskey. We've got them on our doorstep. You couldn't actually make a bourbon with wine barrels. It could be finished in a wine barrel, but not aged in a wine barrel. And so for us, celebrating all of this provenance and flavor is so exciting. And such is the diversity of the bond store. We could release a single barrel every week of the year in the United States for two years and still not come back to the first barrel that we tried in terms of specification, such as the depth. So it's pretty exciting to be able to share them. In and of themselves, they're great. They're just great sipping whiskey. They're great neat whiskeys to celebrate this thing that we love, this amber liquid that we love. But from a Starwood point of view, when you start to have three or four of these on a back bar at a bar, or like if you've got them at home, you're really starting to deconstruct Starwood as a product. One of the things that we pride ourselves on is the fact that these are the component parts that make twofold Innova. These aren't the quirky barrels that didn't fit. They're actually the component parts that make Nova. And particularly the single-grain ones, the wheat whiskies that are straight wheat. Oh my goodness. They're just so moorish and at 110, 112 proof, which is barrel strength for us. And I'll talk about that in a second. They're the twofold of the single grains. Do you know what I mean? If you're thinking about people saying, oh, I want to try single barrels, but the proof and the intensity of the flavor always gets me. It's like, well, you've got to try a star with single barrel, particularly if it's a wheat one because they're just so deliciously approachable. A lot of people ask us why are they so low relative to say bourbons, which can get up into the 70s or high 130s at the very least, sometimes 140s. We proofed down our spirit, the immature spirit that we age in wine barrels to 110 when we fill a barrel. The reason for that is we just understand that our environment in Melbourne is so radically different to anywhere else in the world and quite reactive in terms of the environment that we wanted the spirit to engage with the oak in a more gentler fashion than you would at say 135, which is typically the standard. So by doing 132, 135 as a standard, even in Australia, we're using these wine barrels, we prove down, it's way more expensive. If you want to be focused on cash flow and leveraging the most out of each barrel, then you'd go into the pocket of the highest amount of proof you can jam into that barrel and then proof it at the end. Proof it down to the level that you want at the end. Effectively, we're aging water. That's part of the secret sauce to starwood is that a lot of the proofing happens before we age, which means that when that comes out, the whiskey is just way more integrated. That shines through in the single barrels as well because they're already 110, you could proof it down to 80, no problems. And that's not going to turn into a flabby whiskey. You can get some flabby proofed down single cask sometimes, I find. It just stacks up because we're proofing the water at the beginning.

Yeah, I think that, you know, that's kind of what happens when you put accountants in charge of distilling process, right? They're saying, Hey, it's got to go in the barrel at 125 or XXX, whatever the number is. But when you let the, the whiskey man. make that decision. You say, no, you need to go in the barrel under 115, maybe 110, maybe 105, somewhere in that range, because water interacts with wood so much differently than alcohol does. And that's where the flavor comes from. If you want to extract the most out of the barrel, it comes by introducing the water, which is all about, solulizes the wood sugars. So I think you're spot on. And I think customers appreciate that because you can taste it in the whiskey.

You can. But it's really interesting, Jim and Mike, I'm sure you've met these people, mostly guys, right? Back in the day, if they were rusted on tweed jacket wearing Scotsman, it'd be like the higher the number in terms of age, the better the whiskey, right? And certainly in the single barrel worlds of bourbon, it's like, you know, I don't touch anything that's in a single barrel below 120 because it's just not single barrel then. It's like, OK, well. What we found is that over time, I think it's like most things, it's not like IPAs. Back in the day, I was a huge IPA drinker, and now I'm just seeking a lager, like a well-crafted lager from a microbrewery. To me, it's far more like the artistry and mastery of making a wonderful lager compared to a hazy IPA that's poking you in the eyes with hops. There's chalk and cheese there in terms of intensity of flavor, but in terms of craftsmanship, they're both the same. You can't argue with the craftsmanship. It's an interesting kind of journey that I think we all go along, which is start with the approachable stuff, then go and explore the extremes of intensity and complexity, and then find your pocket, which is somewhere in between usually.

Yeah. I think my wife always asked me when we go to, when we go to breweries, why are you always ordering the Ellis and the, and the coal and the, you know, and the, yeah, the Pilsners it's because I'm looking for that brewery that's really got their craft on that really knows what they're doing. And it's easy to throw a bunch of hops at something, either dry hops or boiled in hops and, and get to a high hoppy content, a bitter or a very amyrotic note. But it's another thing to really craft. that blogger or that Pilsner or that, uh, you know, that Hellas or Colesh or whatever it might be. It's a lot more, it takes a lot more skill to do that.

Yeah, Dave, I I'm sitting here thinking about that craftsmanship. I also noticed that your website that you guys have a peated, uh, whiskey, which to me, man, that it's almost a little weird because I don't think Pete, whenever I think of Australia,

Yeah. So, and it's very weird for Starwood as well in that for us, you know, session ability, approachability, easy to drink, bringing people into whiskey, all those, all those words and the word Pete don't really go together, right? And don't get me wrong, I love peated whiskeys. My middle daughter's name is Isla. It gives you an idea of how much whisky we have here. I shipped over, oh, I'm going to say half a pallet of whisky and I reckon a layer of that pallet was Lefroy. I mean, I love peated whiskeys, right? But that's just not part of who we are in our ethos. What we wanted to take for a walk was, what would be the starward version of a peated expression? And so it's a finish, right? It's a finish in peated barrels from Isla. which is really delicate and soft. And so you get all those smoke characteristics coming through, but not with the intensity that we know and love from those Scotch whiskeys. So it's just a different take on it. And experimentations, we're given so much license in Australia to experiment and play. our projects releases that we do from time to time and the way that we can do that. We've got a ginger beer cast finished whiskey. We've got a 15th anniversary whiskey that's coming out this December, which is really exciting and is available in the States. And yeah, if you hop onto the Starwood website now, I think we've got some single barrels there too. Like there's a Captain's Peak, which is I went into the bond store and said, this one we're putting on the website. It's a great expression. And then we'll release some more captain's picks throughout the year. So if you subscribe to Starward on our website, we'll keep you up to date as to when those... This is the shameless plug section, guys. When those updates are coming out,

So speaking of shameless plugs, this is probably a good time for us to let you give, uh, give our listeners, uh, some details on how they can find out more about star word, how they can, uh, sort of tap into your activity on social media, what you have going on. Uh, how do they subscribe to star word and, and, and, and get those emails that are constantly coming that are updating them on what's going on.

Yeah, look, you know, I like to think of the emails as objectively non-lame, right? Like they're kind of really interesting whiskey updates. They're not just there to kind of sell you a new product. We kind of dive a little deeper into the team that makes this amazing whiskey. some of the serving suggestions, the ideas behind why we age in wine barrels, talking to some winemakers every now and then. So it really does give you a new perspective on whisky making that you're not likely to see from the United States, Scotland, Ireland or anywhere else in the world. And you can do that by going to Starwood.com, our website, and the subscription will kind of pop up on the screen or this down the bottom of the page. Of course, we've got Starwood Whiskey without an E. as our social media handles on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. So you can register from that point of view. I'm pretty active as well. My Instagram handle is iamdavidvatali. So you can connect with me directly and see what I'm up to around and about in the United States as we build the brand. So by all means, subscribe from that perspective. We've got We've always got new and interesting updates to share and new whiskeys as well, which is pretty exciting.

And, and for those, those listeners who are also foodies and it does happen, you know, you like whiskey and you like food at the same time. Just so happens that the bourbon road is actually a podcast that is in the, um, arts food group on Apple podcasts. So we're kind of tied in with food groups already. And you guys are actually the official whiskey of the Michelin guide, which is pretty amazing.

Yeah, it is amazing. It's something that like, you know, we talked about the, you know, provenance of whiskey in terms of ingredients. But I think the much often missed part of the provenance is the cultural provenance. Bourbon is not bourbon. outside of the United States. I'd argue it's probably not bourbon outside of Kentucky and Tennessee, right? Just in terms of like the cultural aspect of how deeply part of the fabric of the environment it is. And so for me, Starwood needed to kind of touch on that as well from an ingredients and a climate and a geography perspective. Of course, aging in wine barrels, all of those things are the building blocks to create a great whiskey from the place it's made. but it wouldn't be complete without tapping into the culture of the place too. Melbourne, particularly, is a really cosmopolitan city with huge waves of migration, particularly after the war, and that is best reflected in food. You just see that diversity reflected in the cuisine of of your downtown area and we're getting to 2.0s like Italian cuisine 2.0, Vietnamese 2.0. It's kind of like I've got a friend I went to high school with a Vietnamese friend and he's like I just wanted to set up a wine bar but their parents had a Vietnamese restaurant so I was like no, you're going to take over the restaurant. So now you've got this Vietnamese restaurant with natural red wines. It shouldn't work, but it does because it's authentic to the place. It's really interesting. And so you're seeing that second wave now come out and it's really lovely and interesting. Being the official whiskey of the Michelin Guide is a lovely recognition of the fact that I have a strong belief that whiskey has a place at the dinner table, maybe not always neat. We talked about mixed drinks and taking whiskey for a walk in different ways. There's as much you know, craftsmanship and care and dedication into both making the whiskey, but also the drink at some of these restaurants as there is the food that's per plated up next to you. So why not share that?

So Mike, do you think our listeners are wondering where's the giveaway?

Yeah, they are. Well, I'll tell you what listeners, Dave hooked you up this week in Star Wars Whiskey. We can't thank you enough, Dave, for what you sent. What we got listeners, and this is going to be two different giveaways. Pay attention closely. We've got a bottle of the twofold double grain Australian whiskey. And we also have a bottle of the Starward Nova. Now what we're going to do on Instagram, the day of the podcast release, what you're going to want to do is go ahead and we want you to follow Starward Whiskey. We want you to hashtag Starward Whiskey and tag three people in the comments. And at the end of that night, nine o'clock Eastern Standard Time, We're gonna pick a winner for the twofold. Now the second giveaway out, we also got a cap from you guys too, Dave, that you guys sent us. It's nice and black. It's got the star on there. Love it. So a cap will go along with that, along with the tasting card with two cocktails for the twofold and for our bourbon roadies on Facebook. You got to do the same thing. Tag three people, hashtag star word whiskey. You got to make sure you follow a star word on Facebook bottle that Nova whiskey for you. And we also have a cap for that one lucky roadie that gets picked at that night. I'll do that one at 10 o'clock that night, Jim.

Oh my goodness, Mike, you're really sacrificing normally to get you to step till 10 o'clock at night is a tough, tough ask.

Well, it is, but Dave was kind enough to share his whiskey with our listeners, with our fans out there, obviously with your fans, Dave, because the reason you're on our show is because of the whiskey community there in Australia. Great guys like James, you went over there listening to our podcast, drinking your whiskey all the time. Tim Joyce over here in America listened to our podcast, drinking your whiskey all the time. He loves your single barrels. So two different giveaways. Um, on the same day, we haven't ever done that for Jim.

That's right. This is a, this is a first and, uh, I'm glad we're doing it, Mike, because it's, uh, it's long overdue.

Dave, man, we can't thank you enough for coming on a bourbon road. We know you're a busy man trying to promote your whiskey. Uh, always at work. You're so busy. You shaved your beard off.

I took my beard off because it was just like getting in the way. Like it's like, I can't trim it. I'm just going to take it all off and give myself a couple of weeks of time before it grows back.

Yeah, sometimes you got to do that. Sometimes you got to do that. Well, listeners, you know what I'm about to say. You could find us out there in a social media land on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. We're all over the place. Main place you can find us, as we said before, is the Bourbon Roadies on Facebook. There's some like-minded whiskey drinkers inside that group. You got to be 21. You gotta love bourbon or whiskey like this star word. We'd appreciate that. We know everybody loves some whiskey in their life. You also have to agree to play nice because we don't tolerate any rudeness at all in that group. That means that if you drink from the very bottom of the shelf, that old tin high I used to have to drink when I was in the Army, all the way to the top of that shelf, like that E.H. Taylor that Jim likes to drink, whatever you're drinking. We want you to share that experience. We want you to share celebrations of life in there, births, retirements, birthdays, anniversaries. Heck, I even shared an old shipmate of mine that just passed away. His name was Jack Downey. Those types of lives, we like to celebrate that life that he lived, his service to our country. So come into our group, share your experience. We'd really enjoy it.

So we do two shows every single week. Every Monday, we do a craft distillery episode where Mike and I will highlight a single expression from a craft distillery, trying to do it right, trying to step out of the box. We like to shine a little bit of light on them. We'll taste that expression. We'll let you know what we think. We'll let you know whether or not we believe it should be added to your bar. Every Wednesday, we do a long episode, two 30 minute halves, about an hour in length. We'll have a guest on the show, like Dave here from Starward. We'll get into a subject, we'll deep dive it, we'll have several expressions. We hope you listen to both episodes every single week. But Mike, what do they have to do to make sure that they don't miss one?

Well listeners, you know what you need to do is scroll on at the top of that app, hit that check sign, that plus sign, that subscribe sign. That app will tell you, hey, these two jokers have a show that's out today and you need to listen. That way you can find out what kind of whiskey we got in our hands. Then you need to scroll on down, hit that five star review, leave us some of those comments. Cause you know what I'm about to say. the big bad booty daddy a bourbon will come over your house drink bringing some of this star word whiskey with him will drink it all night long drink it to the very bottom of the bottle by the end of that night i guarantee you'll leave us that five star review and some comments but seriously those comments those five star reviews opens up doors to distilleries like star ward whiskey for us gets great guests on our show like dave here from star ward we would really appreciate it

So Mike and I are very approachable. If you see us at a, an event, a whiskey event, if you see us at a liquor store, if you see us out and about in town, make sure you step up to us and introduce yourself. Shake her hand. If the situation's appropriate, we'd love to have a drink with you in your hometown. If you have a distillery or a particular bottle that's really got your. Got you going, you know, got you excited for the moment. Uh, make sure you let us know about it. James did. And that's why starboard whiskey is on the show today. So make sure you let Mike and I know about it. We'll reach out to the distillery. We'll make sure a show happens. Uh, but we want to make sure that all those distilleries that are trying to make a place in this world, get a chance to shine their light. The bourbon road is a place to do that. But make sure you reach out to us. You can always go to our website, the bourbon road.com. We have a contact us page there. Mike and I are available through email. I'm Jim at the bourbon road.com. He's Mike at the bourbon road.com. But kind of like we always say, you know, the best place is just to hit us up on our DMS on Instagram. I'm Jay Shannon 63. I'm big bourbon chief. And we'll see you down the bourbon road.