269. Chris Morris - Woodford Reserve

Welcome to another trip down the Bourbon Road with your hosts Jim and Mike. So grab a glass of your favorite bourbon and kick back.

Hey this is Big Chief and you're listening to The Bourbon Road. You know what I love to pour in my old fashions? Is a little maple syrup. It can't be just any maple syrup. It has to be from seldom seen farms up in Ohio. He takes bourbon barrels. pours his syrup in there and ages it for six to nine months, making for some delicious, just some delicious syrup that you could pour on pancakes. You could pour it on waffles, chicken waffles like this fat guy likes. But seriously, you want to make a delicious cocktail with some maple syrup and not that old simple syrup. Check out seldom see maple dot com. Pick up some stuff from there today. We'd appreciate it. Hey, listeners, you want to come meet the big chief in person, the big bad booty daddy of bourbon. Come out to Nashville, Tennessee this Saturday, the 21st of May 2022 to the Tennessee Whiskey Trail Experience at Nissan Stadium. I'm going to be there from five to nine. I'm actually going to be in a dad's drinking bourbon tent doing a live podcast with Big John Edwards, our friend. Come out there and see us. If you haven't got tickets yet, you can go to TNWhiskeyTrailExperience.com and pick up your tickets. I'd really like to see you out there. If you're one of our listeners, come out there and meet Big John and we'll have a great time.

Hello everybody, I'm Jim Shannon. And I'm Mike Hyatt. And this is the Bourbon Road. And today Mike, have a special day. Got somebody special in the house, don't we?

Yeah, we got this seventh master distiller, really for Brown Forman, but everybody would know that he's for Woodford Reserve. We got Chris Morris with us. Welcome to the Bourbon Road, Chris. Thank you guys.

Yes, Chris, welcome. It's been a minute since you were on the show. I think that the last time was, uh, about two, two and a half years ago.

Oh, that long ago, my goodness.

Yeah, we shouldn't let it go so long. It's nice to have you back.

Thank you.

Well, Chris, usually we like to try and get straight to the whiskey. We're having a show. The listeners like to hear us talk a little bit about whiskey. Mike and I actually have different whiskies in our glass right now. I've got the Woodford Reserve Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey. Mike, what do you have?

I've got the Woodford Kentucky Straight Wheat Whiskey, one of my all-time favorite wheated whiskeys.

That's great to hear, Mike. Thanks.

So, Chris, we're going to take a sip and talk about it just for a minute. And I would love for you to fill in the gaps for us until it's a little bit about, let's say, your standard issue, Woodford Reserve, the bourbon whiskey maybe, a little bit about that, a little bit about the wheat whiskey that Mike's drinking, if that's okay.

Oh, absolutely. We have a philosophy, a production rationale that governs all of our products from the concept stage to, of course, being in the glass that you and Mike have, Jim. And it's a very simple concept. What the five sources of whiskey flavor provide a product, and how can one of those be altered to create a new product? And the five sources of flavor are not some unique concept because every whiskey distillery in the world, Scotch, Irish, Canadian, Tennessee, Kentucky, you name the place where the whiskey comes from. That distillery, if it's making whiskey, is a whiskey distillery. It's using water, grain, fermentation, distillation, and maturation within the standards of identity of their nation or region to create a whiskey, a flavor profile. And most, as you well know, will hang their hat on one or two of those flavor sources as the reason why their product tastes different than somebody else's. It's our recipe. It's our yeast. It's our maturation, whatever the case may be. Very rarely, if ever, when you exclude Woodford Reserve, do you hear distillery or a brand articulate how all five sources contribute to the final product. And that's, I think, something we've done that's quite special. We've identified where flavors come from and have used those sources to make Wood Preserve a very complex yet balanced product. And from those five sources of flavor, again, we alter one of them to make the rest of our family stand out and still be within the Wood Preserve family. When I was brought up in the industry and you guys Certainly, no, it wasn't that long ago. We just had six distilleries in Kentucky. We had nine distilleries in Kentucky. I can tell you by tasting a glass of whiskey where it came from because it had a house style. the way whiskey from that distillery tastes because of the yeast profile or its warehouse, whatever the case may be. And it's virtually impossible when you have the non-distillery products, the distilleries that are making multiple products from multiple brands, from multiple companies. It's really hard to tell where a single whiskey comes from. But I hope you can do that with whiskey. because of our process and the fact that we are a single brand distillery. We make only the Woodford Reserve brand and our bourbon that you're enjoying, Jim, is 72% corn, 18% rye, 10% malted barley. that has been mashed at the wood-reserved stillery with our limestone water directly from the famous Pepper Spring, and has been fermented with unique wood-reserved strain of yeast distilled in our copper pot stills. And we also have some whiskey being made for us just to let at our brown foam and story, which of course uses column stills. And then barreled in the unique Woodford Zerve barrel made at the Brown Form at Coopbridge. And every barrel of Woodford is being aged in Woodford County and heat-cycled warehousing. So that's our five sources of flavor process. And if we have time and if you want to get into what each one delivers, we can. But that is the template. Now, Mike, you have our wheat whiskey. The water, yeast, fermentation, distillation, and maturation are exactly the same as the bourbon. The only difference between wood-preserved wheat and wood-preserved bourbon is the grain recipe. So that's the one change. So if it tastes different than wood-preserved bourbon, which I know we'll all three agree it does, you can figure out very easily why it's a wheat whiskey. And everything else is the same, the same with the rye, the same with the malt. master's collection, distillery series, baccarat. There's always one change that makes the difference. So we really keep it simple. We keep it on a very simple concept. And of course, everything with the exception of batch proof, which batch proof is the reason it's different, everything is presented at 90.4 proof. So you won't say, oh gosh, this wheat is really soft and smooth, seems softer than the bourbon. Oh, look, it's 80 proof. Yeah, no wonder it's softer. It's the same proof as the bourbon. The rye's not spicier or hotter than the bourbon because it's 100 proof, it's 90.4 proof. So again, we remove all obstacles to understanding As long as you understand the basic principle, we've changed only one thing.

I think that's pretty awesome that you only do change one thing here or there to make it something different. And then you get your batch proofs that I really, really like. Some people say they're a little strong, but the 90.4 is super recognizable with you guys. And I think you could go into the story and say, hey, this is this is Woodford Reserve. Chris, could you tell us a little bit about how Woodford got started?

Yes, the late 80s, early 90s were not a good time for American whiskey, whiskey in general, unless you were called single malt scotch. Certainly bourbon was in the midst of a long-term decline, and Stuttsville has closed in 1991. Yellowstone in the late 80s, Medley in 91. So you have distilleries closing in the Commonwealth. And forget about distilleries being anywhere else, not named Indiana or Tennessee. There just were no other whiskey distilleries. And so in those darkest of times, the late Owsley Brown II, who was chairman of Brown Form in our parent company, Owsley, on his own volition, decided that Brown Foreman would create a new bourbon whiskey, because he was really looking towards the global market, and he was a very perceptive individual. So not so much the domestic market, but we're going to make a new bourbon for the world. And this bourbon would have to have its own distillery. It's not going to come from another distillery. That distillery would be like our Jack Daniel's distillery down at Lynchburg, Tennessee, would have a home place visit experience so people could come and learn about this new brand and feel at home. That's a Brown Form and Term home place. That's what he proposed. And even within the company, there was pushback. Brownform is that way. You can disagree with executives. You can disagree with each other politely, collegially. But there were debates. Is this a good idea? It's going to cost a lot of money. Are we wasting our time, wasting effort, wasting our treasure? And Owsley's view obviously persevered. We were able to buy the old LeBron Graham distillery out in Woodford County and restore it, put the five sources of flavor concept eventually into practice. and create a new bourbon when no one wanted another bourbon, and opened up the distillery for visits when no one was coming to Kentucky to visit, unless you're going to visit Maker's Mark. That was the only visit experience where you can go through a distillery. It was a very different time than it is today. But Asley's Vision has certainly paid off. And now I get cards, letters, emails, phone calls, visits from people. I'm talking to Kentuckians who know us. We took a vacation to Barcelona, France, and everybody had Woodford there. We were on a cruise here and there, and everybody had Woodford. You wouldn't have even heard that five, 10 years ago. So Woodford is really now making its presence known around the world. And again, we have Vowsley to thank for that.

Well, Chris, as I taste this bourbon, I'm searching for those 200 some odd flavors that are there. My palates not quite. sophisticated enough to pick up more than a half thousand.

Let's be fair, Jim. Assistant master distiller Elizabeth McCall and myself really put in an intensive study because we'd said there were 212 flavors and we came up with 215 a couple years later. So we really dug into it at the request of the brand team as they were developing some advertising material. But It takes work to get all 215 of them. Not only does it take sensory work, qualitative analysis work, it takes chemical analysis. So no, you're not going to sit down with a glass of Woodford Reserve and start rattling off 215 flavors. That is an exercise in depth. I hope you can find 30, 40, 50 maybe as you enjoy a glass. But again, we don't want people to work at it. We want you to have a glass of Woodford and just say, oh, this tastes great and enjoy it from then on. It's not supposed to be something you have to think about. It's just something you should enjoy.

One thing I've always enjoyed about Woodford's, you call it your flagship whiskey or your straight bourbon whiskey, is the fact that it has a tremendous balance. It doesn't like punch you in one side or the other of your palate. It kind of just, it visits everywhere evenly.

That's right. That's the key to Woodford is its balance. Now, balance comes only through the batching process. Because as we make wood preserve across the year, and we only take two weeks off a year, so we're distilling 50 weeks a year. There will be variations in product flavor profile, subtle, but still to the trained palate. Oh, that's a little bit different today. And that's based on whether obviously time of year therefore, and condition of the grain. Is it the first harvest of that year's grain or are you using the very last of the previous year's grain? So again, there's a lot of factors that make the spirit flow have some differences. And then of course, the big unknown is the barrel itself. And as the barrels come from the cuprage, That wood is coming from many different regions of the United States. Trees have various ages, different growth patterns. It all adds up towards a lot of difference. And I have tasted barrels of Woodford that you could swear we had put orange peels in them. We didn't. Or they were minty. Or they were all about chocolate. I mean, the variation in individual barrel flavor presentation is incredible. So we have to batch barrels together. We're batching approximately 120 to 140 barrels together for a bottling batch, but that's a wonderful number because it allows us to make that balance possible. So putting fruity barrels and spicy barrels and sweet barrels, et cetera, together to create a consistent flavor profile that is balanced is our bread and butter. And that is very true. The balance of Woodford has made it enjoyable to so many different palates.

So Chris, you're a Kentucky and you grew up in Louisville and went to college in Louisville. How did you get into the spirits industry?

It's that Louisville connection. My mother and father both worked at Brown-Forman. My father began in 1946, mom in 1952. So dad had the longest career there, a mere 41 years. And I was able to come in as many Brown-Forman employee children do in an intern program. And I just stuck with it. And that's where I'm at today.

Wow, so since you graduated from college at Bellarmine, you've been working at Brown Forman.

No, I had a little side career, and that was due to that downturn in the late 1980s when bourbon was really, really being clobbered by the marketplace. I was at the Brown Foreman Distillery in Shively, and it was running less than six months a year at that point. And the company told a group of us young supervisors, There's nothing for you all to do gonna have to let you go which was one of the worst days of my life that i remember. But fortunately a little company that nobody really knows about anymore the old glenmore distilleries company. had just acquired the Medley Distillery in Owensboro and the Fleischmann Distilling Company and was looking for some help. And ironically, a big whiskey company let me go because whiskey was doing bad and a little whiskey company took me on because they had some high hopes. So I joined Glenn Moore. and was a great learning experience. Glenmore was acquired in three years by United Distillers, at that time the biggest spirits company in the world. And I became their bourbon guy and they had acquired Stitzel Weller and Shinley. So I was working with Weller and Rebel Yale and Old Charter and anyway, all these famous historic brands. And I became master distiller there. No one knows about that much because no one talked about master distiller in those days too much. And then Brown Foreman saw the work I was doing and called me back and I answered the call.

So that helped me build a foundation for what you did today, being the master distiller there in Owensboro.

And in Louisville as well, Stitsweller, which I helped close. Anyway, yes, absolutely. That experience exposed me to more recipes, more yeast drains, more different technical processes. You know, this still is different than that. Still, this warehouse is different than that warehouse. but also being part of United Distillers. I spent a lot of time in Scotland and a lot of what I have been able to bring to Woodford Reserve Brown Foreman today was some things I learned in Scotland, finishing processes and things like that. So it turned out to be an invaluable nine-year interlude in my now 37 years at Brown Foreman cumulative.

Now, where in that time did you say, and I might be wrong, but from my understanding, you developed the bourbon flavor, Will.

Yes, that was when I was back at Brown Foreman. When I was at United Distillers, I started really looking at styles of whiskey and that's when I coined the concept of high rye bourbon because I had multiple rye recipes across three distilleries and that one's a high rye and that one's not. I tell that to Marty Regan and Weymak and Harrison, those guys. And of course, with Well Learned Rebel Yell, I had a wheat recipe, so I coined the term weeded bourbon. So those two very common terms now I coined as I was trying to articulate what our products were all about. And in 92, I was the first to introduce taste notes. So there were no taste notes that are all over the world today. There were no taste notes for bourbon. There were for scotch. Obviously there were for wines, but no one had ever included taste notes in a bourbon. And I introduced that. And Jimmy Russell Wild Turkey was the second one to pick up. about a year later on that concept. So I introduced taste notes and that led me to keep thinking about how do we describe and promote bourbon on a global basis to an audience that is used to the wine wheel, the malt wheel, etc. Because outside the United States, the world doesn't revolve around bourbon. It's mainly about scotch. So I was trying to put us in the malt drinker, the cognac drinker, the wine drinker's mindset, and how to raise the reputation of bourbon whiskey. And we need flavor wheels. We need descriptors. We need things that these other great beverage alcohol products do. So I began in 1999 with a stylistic approach, writing down, researching, using multiple bourbons from all the different companies in Kentucky to see what the myriad range of flavors were. And in 2004, I published the Bourbon Flavor Wheel.

I don't think a lot of our listeners knew that. Do you think, Jim?

I don't think so. It seems like much of what you worked on in the earlier days has found its way to the mainstream.

It really is. And of course, I wasn't trademarking or protecting anything. It just goes out in the public domain. And you don't get credit for it. That's fine. I think it's served its purpose.

It's a bit self-satisfying though, right? I mean, it feels like it.

It really is. It's a lot of fun. And some authors like Albert Schmidt just wrote a book, hasn't been published yet, Bourbon 101. And he asked, can we use the flavor wheel and give you credit for it and everything? And I said, well, sure, that's really nice of you. But that doesn't always happen, but that's fine.

You're also credited with and responsible for creating the first finished Bourbons. Is that correct?

Yeah, that begins with the master's collection. And again, borrowing from, I didn't finish in the back, by no means, obviously, but took it to a different level with experiments and introducing varietal barrels, such as Chardonnays and Pinot Noirs and studying Zimmendels and Merlots and their impact on Woodford Reserve. And then going into the ultimate extreme, and that's where having the Brown-Foma Cooperage as a teammate is wonderful. I decided we should make barrels that aren't made out of oak. What can we do? Can we make an apple barrel, a cherry barrel? Well, the answer is you can't make barrels out of apple wood, but you can make them out of cherry wood. And we made a number of called exotic barrels, pecan, ash, maple, And I chose maple barrels for one of the early masters collection maple wood finish. The first barrels ever made out of maple trees, the first whiskey to go in a maple barrel. And again, it was quite the historic moment that back then most people didn't really pay much attention to.

Well, that's really fun. That entire master's collection series is just a whole lot of fun. Every year, we're looking forward to the new expressions that come out.

Oh, thank you. It's getting harder to be that innovative with all these wonderful micro distilleries, you know, 3,000 strong across the country doing something here or there. A lot of innovation going on now. Back in the day, we were the innovators.

To me, it's pretty amazing that not that long ago, really, that 2009, that Finnish bourbons are just coming out then. That's not really that long ago, 12, 13 years ago.

Now, the rapidity of innovation and advancement in bourbon whiskey has been incredible. You think how long bourbon's been produced and how it didn't change. In fact, what was the old? nothing's ever changed here we've been doing this for seven generations you know does it taste the way it did a hundred years ago of course it does which never was true but that's what the word out was and now it's all about we're different we're different we're different and that has been almost in the proverbial blink of an eye and now of course Scotch whiskey, Irish whiskey are trying to be as innovative as bourbon whiskey is from Kentucky and doing finishes and, you know, certain major brands have a rye whiskey or certain brands are going into bourbon finishes. I mean, that's incredible. That never would have been conceivable 15 years ago.

Well, Mike, before we head into our break here, you got a few notes on that wheat whiskey.

Yeah. If somebody's looking to break into bourbon or break into whiskey, I always point towards this bottle right here. It's got a lot of floral notes to it. A lot of sweetness to it. It does have a tad bit of bitterness on the back end, but I've had this bottle for quite a bit of time. So it could be from that, but it's been set in the dark. So I don't think it went bad. It just has that tad bit of bitterness on the back end to me. But, yeah, just a beautiful expression. If you're looking to get in a whiskey, I suggest you go pick this up today.

Well, thanks, Mike. Of course, yeah. When you ferment wheat, whether you're making beer or spirit, wheat is going to make a lot of fruit esters, a lot of fruit character. Of course, it has an absence of spice character in general. And that bitterness, probably because it is such a light fruit sweet whiskey, the barrel plays a little larger role in some of that finish than you might find in another expression of what reserve. But yeah, it's not the balance of our bourbon. None of our whiskies are as balanced as our bourbon because of the grain recipe takes them in a very pronounced flavor way.

Yeah, when I say bitter, I don't really mean bitter, I guess. It's more of drying like a good red wine to me.

That's the oak.

That's the tannins. What about you, Jim?

Yeah, I tell you what, I've always been a big fan. Woodford's always been on my bar, and it's something that I think you'll find on many private bars across Kentucky and around the world. I think it's because it's so balanced. It kind of defines the bourbon profile, right? It really is a good example of Kentucky bourbon. In fact, you're going to get the traditional oats. You're going to get the vanilla and the caramel. You're going to get the oak influence from it. But you're also going to feel that that baking cabinet is going to open up for you and give you a lot of those wonderful spices there. Got a little bit of cocoa in the background there. Not too much, but just a little bit.

Yeah, that's the malt.

Yeah, it's a wonderful experience. It's a balanced experience. I would say if somebody is looking for that one bourbon that sort of defines the bourbon profile, I think the Woodford Reserve definitely stands tall in that area and it's a good choice. And you can get it anywhere, which is great.

Yeah, that's nice. Wasn't the case too long ago, but it's great now.

All right. We're going to take a short break and we come back. We've got a couple more Woodford Expressions, and we're going to talk a little bit more about what's coming up for Woodford Brewster.

Man, Jim, you know what I've really been enjoying lately? Oh, you're going to tell me. some of that seldom seen farms maple syrup that's been aged in bourbon barrels. It is absolutely delicious. Not only in a cocktail, but you can cook with it, right?

You can, you absolutely can. Now Mike, Kevin just sent me a new shipment. So I got a little bit more and I've been making some beef jerky lately. Really? Yeah. Now I know you're the meat master, but I tried my hand at it. I said, you know, I want to make some beef jerky and I've got a pretty decent beef jerky recipe and it's got a little bit of soy sauce, a little bit of Worcestershire, a little bit of, you know, onion powder, garlic powder, those kinds of things. But I always put brown sugar in it. Well, this time Kevin sent me a bottle of his granulated maple sugar. Wow. And I decided that I was going to substitute the maple sugar for the brown sugar. Oh, game changer. Let me tell you. Total game changer. Total game changer. Some of the best beef jerky you've ever had. So I'm going to make another batch here in about a week and I'll be sure to get you some.

Man, that sounds delicious. Vivian took and we just got an air fryer like most people got these days, right? And she took and soaked fresh pineapple in that maple syrup and then put it in the air fryer and it kind of crisp up a little bit. Oh, sounds good. It was just magically delicious. And people probably wonder why we love it so much. Kevin competed in the Maple Festival last year, 2021, and he was named grand champion. That's saying something.

So Salem Seam Farms. grand champion of the 2021 maple syrup festival.

Yeah. Wow. That's saying something. Yeah. You're going up against some heavy hitters in maple syrup. And I know we're talking about just the syrup, but you know, that's something to be proud of. Hats off to you, Kevin. Kevin's also competing in a couple other competitions. Make sure you check out his website. Check out his social media on Instagram and Facebook. You won't be disappointed. If you want to buy something from him, where can they go, Jim?

You can go to seldomseenmaple.com. and kevin and his crew they've got a great website very easy to navigate they've got all their products on there you can buy their maple syrup by the bottle you can buy by the case uh you can buy that sugar oh my goodness mike that stuff is so good and they've got some other gift sets there too so you definitely want to check it out

Well, he's also going to be in some distilleries pretty shortly here. Some distilleries that I love and I know you love. He's going to be down Leapers Fork. You can find his syrup down there, aged in their barrels. Treaty Oak down in Dripping Springs, Texas. I was just out there. His syrup's going to be there. Awesome. And at Garrison Brothers in Texas. If you think you love some maple syrup, make sure you go to Garrison Brothers and pick up a bottle from them also. Kevin appreciated it. I know he loves people. You're supporting a local farmer, a local product, a small family. This is no factory place that's putting out maple syrup, right, Jim? This is a good man doing good work. Yeah, gotta love it. Well, make sure you check out his site. Like Jim said, seldom seen maple dot com. Pick up a bottle today.

Alright listeners, so we are back. This is the second half. We've got Chris Morris from Woodford Reserve on today and we have been tasting through his wonderful expressions in the first half. Mike had the weeded whiskey and I had the Kentucky straight bourbon. A couple of fine expressions. We highly suggest our listeners add those to their bar. But in the second half, We've got two new expressions we're going to try. Well, new is not the best word. Two different expressions that we're going to try. Mike, I mean, it's pretty predictable, but I'm pouring the wood for reserve rye at my end. What do you got?

Well, I'm going to pour the very fine rare bourbon. That's what I'm going to pour. Oh boy. Yeah.

Wow. You got a big boy bottle there.

Yeah, I do. You know, I have a bad habit of finding these things and grabbing them for some reason.

You're very lucky then. That's very talented.

Well, it kind of helps that I only live like 15 to 20 minutes from the distillery.

So, Chris, before we get started here, I do have one question for you. Why 90.4?

Well, the world has changed so much. 90 proof was one of the primary proof presentations before prohibition. Everybody thinks it was 100 proof. Now there were 90 proof, 100 proof, 80 proof comes later, and then 86 proof comes in the late 1950s. So 90 was a good historic level that some of the old LeBron Graham, what is now the Wood Reserve Distillery, products were presented at. So that was a good historic reason. It tasted good at that point, at that proof point as well. The point four is really an obsolete technicality that we're going to hang on to because it's part of our identity now, because the TTB has just changed in this last year, how alcohol content, ABV proof is, noted and presented in the bottle. And so we were just trying to give ourselves some real wiggle room to make sure we were always 90 proof to make sure that we had 90.4 as our stated label claim, which gave us a little wiggle room, a couple tense here or there, and we'd still be 90 proof. And again, now that's that's been changed. So it was for technical and historical reasons, one of which is still valid, the historic reason and the technical reason is a move point. But that's our signature now.

It is. It's used across your expressions almost exclusively, except for those that are meant to be other than.

Yes. If the proof is different, that's the reason why it's different.

Right. Right. Well, Mike, I'm gonna take a sip of this right here. I've been noticing it while Chris was talking.

Well, you were short. I had already started drinking. I saw that, yeah.

Well, that's nice. It's a little buttery. It does have that nice spice on the back end. You can definitely tell it's a rye, but it's not 100% rye for sure.

No, it's not. That rye recipe originally came from the Old Watermill brand, which Brown-Forman made in Louisville and acquired from the Old Kentucky Distillery in 1930, well, 1940. The Old Kentucky Distillery had been reestablished in 1935. And Old Watermill was made for years to go into the Brown-Forman blends that no longer exist. And it was that recipe, 53, 33 corn, 14 malt. It was discontinued in the early 1970s, but I was still working with it as an intern in the laboratory. So I was very familiar with that recipe, with that whiskey. And when I decided and asked permission from the company to make rye whiskey, he said, well, this is in our DNA. Let's do this. I remember it very well. And at this point, when we started making Whitford's or rye, I had not heard of those other brands that are 95% rye or 100% rye. They weren't on the market yet. We were making rye whiskey before rye whiskey became popular again. It just took us a long time to get it to market. And everybody's, when are you going to make some rye whiskey? Well, we've been making rye whiskey for a number of years. It's just not on the market yet. So we were early, early adopters of rye whiskey, but very late, relatively speaking, to market. And then subsequently, we uncovered several old journals at Woodford Reserve, the old LeBron Graham journals, from right before Prohibition, well, before the distillery closed. So they're 1914 through 1917. And L&G had a rye recipe that was almost the same recipe. And it was called Mount Eden, E-D-E-N, Mount Eden Rye. And I'm like, well, there you go. very much a classic pre-brobition rye. And that's why I think it's so nice. It's not that very heavily spiced rye. And that good old Kentucky corn gives it some sweetness. And then of course, our unique wood-reserve barrel, as you noted, Jim gives you some of that buttery creaminess. So it's an old recipe, but brought back to life in our wood-reserve five sources of flavor template.

So Chris, You know, you went from Glenn Moore where you were the master of Stiller and then you go back to Brown Foreman and it wasn't until 1997 where you were named assistant master of Stiller. How did that, you know, how did that? move affect you? Did you like, man, I was the master distiller there and I have to go back and kind of start all over again?

Well, number one, I did not like leaving United Distillers from a personal standpoint. I'd had a lot of creative license. I was traveling the world and had good friends, some who are still friends. Many years later, some were still very prominent in the industry and different companies. But Diageo was being formed and I had a bad feeling and I was accurate at the time that Diageo would crush the United Distillers whiskey portfolio. That's why you see brands like Weller and Old Fitzgerald and Rebel Yale at different companies today. They were broken up and sold off. I would have broken up, but not sold off at the same at the same time. So I got out when the getting out was good. But going back to Brown's woman, it was going back to home. I have many dear friends there. Mom and dad were just so excited. They were both still alive. They were so proud that I was going back to Brown Foreman. Having felt what it done to me was a bit of an injustice, but that was just life. Um, so it was not traumatic at all. And when the president of the company comes up to you and says, we're glad you're back because you were kicking our butts, uh, as a competitor, that made me feel pretty good.

So you could probably see the writing on the wall there too, that you were going to go somewhere in Brown Foreman.

Well, I hope so. I'd hope so. But and we got we got going pretty fast, which is which is fun.

And you still got to learn under some some great people. You know, Lincoln Henderson, which is just a legend in the.

Well, Lincoln was my first boss in 1970s. I'm not going to say that that date was my first boss. And we had been close all those years, never lost contact, would go to lunch, visit with each other. So being working with Lincoln again was just great. And when the company, groups of people say, Lincoln and Chris are gonna do this and that, it was just really great.

Well, I tell you what, I just want to go back a little bit to this rye. Definitely a fine Kentucky rye. I think I'll always have this on my bar, Chris. This is really good. This is a nice civic rye.

And it's something most people don't realize, Jim. These numbers aren't well-published, I guess. That's the best-selling rye from Kentucky in the world. It is.

Wow. I didn't know that.

Because remember, the world's biggest selling rye, even though it's bottled in Kentucky, it's not distilled here. So we're the best selling rye from Kentucky.

Fantastic. Now, you had a little something to do with recreating George Washington's rye, didn't you?

Yeah, that goes back to 2000. And this discus, it's still Spurts County, United States. team with Mount Vernon, the ladies of Mount Vernon, to resurrect the George Washington distillery and distilling experience. And Brown Foreman was one of the lead players in that. We contributed over a million dollars to the project. and we started going to Mount Vernon periodically, weeks at a time, over many years, eight years total, 2000 to 2008, until finally the distillery was rebuilt, reproduced, whatever the technical term was, opened up and that was a It was a really, really great experience to actually distill in copper pots over open fires, mashing in small fashion, mash tons out of doors. We were making whiskey just the way it was made. early Kentucky, which was a tremendous experience, and working with Jimmy Russell, and Lincoln was there for a couple of years, and Mike Sherman from Vindome, because they built the still, and it was just a really great experience.

Now the whiskey of that time was not the same as what we drink today.

George Washington's distillery made a lot of different things, and they didn't have the standards of identity we have today, but he didn't make any... Well, of course, he wasn't making it. His distiller, John Anderson, was. They weren't making what we would call a bourbon today. They were making different types of... whiskeys, rye whiskey, even made rum and brandies. And so I can't remember exactly. I'd have to look in my files with the recipe. It may have been 65% rye, something like that, which was an Eastern style rye. Eastern ryes had higher rye content than Western ryes, which are Kentucky ryes. But it was a neat experience. And the first mash is we made it wood for And we did them and it mashed them in open top barrels. And they put on the back of a truck, driven to Mount Vernon and distilled there. So the very first whiskey that was bottled was mashed at Woodford with the Woodford Reserve Strain of Yeast. And that first bottle number one, which I hand, we hand bottled 24 bottles. I wrote the numbers on and that was my big, a big labeling, one, two, three. Bottle number one sold for $100,000 at auction. So I was really excited. We made whiskey that sold for a hundred grand a bottle.

We drank it just a little bit there, but we had a little bitty bottle, I think.

Yes, yes. I've got a couple of those too. I don't have a hundred grand bottle, not one of those.

Well, Chris, where's Woodford headed today? Like last year's leash, you guys did very fine rare bourbon, which I'm drinking right now that had some barrels that were like 17 years old in it. But what's what's coming down the pike? What's special that's coming down the pike?

Well, we have a lot of innovation and part of my responsibilities and a very, very pleasant and joyful responsibilities is training our next generation, our eighth distiller, and that's Elizabeth McCall. And I've really been encouraging Elizabeth and she's done so well in taking over the master's collection development. And she goes, Chris, we've got master's collections in barrel in the warehouse for the next 12 years. I'm gonna be so old when the first one of my complete control takes over. I said, that's the way it goes. We have a good laugh at that. So we're looking at different grain recipes, again, always looking at different maturation styles, different barrels finishes. We've already released some blends like five wood, which is a blend of wood for finished in four different types of barrels, the fifth barrel being the original barrel. So we've already walked into the world of super exclusive blends. And there'll be more of that coming down the pike.

Why did you guys change bottles on the masters collection?

I'm very impressed somewhere, but yeah, the, um, the original bottle, uh, was a stock bottle that because. That was so long ago, we didn't know, you know, we were just trying to do something. We got that stock bottle with the four grain first year, thousand bottles only in Kentucky. And it was such an overwhelming reception to it like, well, let's make this a real deal. So we thought we had bought that bottle and then we made it out of better glass and put that big thick bottom on it to make it a little more upscale. And everybody was happy with it. And then a few years ago, the glass supplier who we were getting it from told us, you don't own that bottle. We're going to start selling it to other people. We said, we own it. And they said, you didn't. At that point, I forget the details because that's different people working on that and say, well, okay, well, let's just drop it and create a bottle that is ours from the get-go and make a unique Woodford Reserve Masters Collection. We call it the rarities bottle because it also houses the batch proof. And that is a proprietary mold now, so no one can take that away from us.

So no more changes in the future.

None planned, no.

All right, Chris, so you guys were closed to the public for a while, and now you're wide open. People are coming and enjoying the distillery. How are the numbers now? What do they look like?

Oh, yes, the reopening of the Wood Reserve Estillery and the Kentucky Bourbon Trail at large has been a great success. We're a bit stymied, as everybody is, by shortage of labor. can't get as many tour guides as you want or shop workers. So we've had to be closed some days during the week when we normally would have been open, such as a Monday. We're changing that as we're getting more people back to work. Tours, because of coming out of COVID, we're not 30 people packed together. They were 12 people. So there could be more spacing in the tasting rooms and on the tour itself. So a few fewer tours over the course of the day, because again, we didn't have as many tour guides as we once had. Great reception, great return, great demand, but we haven't had as many physical bodies go through just because of those restrictions. And almost every tour is booked online now, well in advance. So any of your listeners, if they want to come and visit Woodford, much less any of the other great distilleries on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, I say, go to the website and check them out and make sure you can get in on any particular day.

Yeah, we've been talking about that as we continue to record episodes with distilleries is that things are different now. You definitely can't just show up in Kentucky and just happen your way into distilleries and expect to get a tour. You definitely need to plan your trip, be prepared, call ahead, get your tickets in advance, and understand that things are moving a little bit slower. uh you know the you got to make some allowances the way things are and and be understanding and come have a great time because we're open for business here right sure are that's very true well chris speaking of tours you got a great giveaway for one of our lucky listeners right

Yes, we have a wood reserve VIP tour, master distillers tour that you would take with either Elizabeth or myself. It's a two hour tour, limited to eight people in total. So you'd be in a very intimate group for a back behind the scenes tour of the distillery and a very special tasting again with one of the two master distillers, myself or Elizabeth. And we'd like to offer that as a prize.

So that's right, listeners. Two tickets. to their VIP tour with either Chris or Elizabeth. That VIP master distiller tour is two hours long. They're regularly $500 each and they come, now listen up listeners, with a limited edition bottle. So that's a pretty great giveaway. So to win that giveaway, what you gotta do on the day this is released, today, you're listening right now, go to our Instagram, Tell me what year Chris started his internship with Brown Forman. And I'll tell you, it's not on this podcast, so you can't go back and listen. You're going to have to do your homework. But what a great gift. $1,000 worth of stuff for you. You get to go hang out with Chris or Elizabeth at Woodford Reserve. Man, Jim, that's a pretty awesome giveaway.

That's a really awesome giveaway. So Mike, you're going to make a post on Instagram on the day of release of this episode.

Yeah.

And all they need to do is go in on that, on that post, make a comment with their answer, right?

That first person that can do it is going to win.

But you're going to check to make sure that they're following Woodford Reserve and following the Bourbon Road on Instagram, right?

Yes, sir. Well, Chris, man, we can't thank you enough for for coming on the Bourbon Road podcast. Where could our listeners find you and Woodford Reserve on social media?

Good question. I'm not on social media. The brand is on social media websites. Elizabeth is on social media. I just don't do that. So don't look for me. But whiffreserve.com is a good place to start.

Well, Chris, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show today. We really appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the Bourbon Road. We can't wait until the next time we have you, or Elizabeth, on for that matter.

Yeah, we look forward. Let's not make it two and a half years later, OK?

Absolutely. Thank you very much.

Thank you both.

All right, Mike, well, where can people find us on the internet?

So you can find us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube. Do you know where you can really find us at? It is on Facebook, the bourbon roadies. Go and check us out. We're a group in there, around 26, 2700 strong of like-minded bourbon drinkers. We've got some easy rules though. Are you 21? Do you like bourbon? And do you agree to play nice? Uh, we just don't tolerate any rudeness in there. That's meaning if you drink from the very bottom of the shelf, um, maybe some 10 high or the very top of the shelf, like this very fine, rare bourbon from Woodford reserve. We want you to be able to do that in that group without any hesitation. What do you say, Jim?

Absolutely, we love good, kind, honest people. Come into the group, hang out with us, talk about bourbon, talk about life, be jolly, be fun, but don't chop anybody off at the knees for what they drink, and we'll all get along just fine. Mike, we do two shows every week. Every Monday, we do a craft distillery episode. About 15 or 20 minutes in length, we'll pick a fine craft bottle, we'll analyze it and pick it apart and tell people whether we think Gotta add that bottle to their bar. Then every Wednesday, like today, we have a big episode. We'll have a guest on like Chris Morris. We'll spend a good hour talking and deep diving a subject. We'll drink a few expressions. Heck, today we drank four different expressions of Woodford. What a great day. We do that every week. You can make sure that you don't miss a single episode that we put out. And Mike, how do they do that?

Well, heck, what you want to do is scroll on up to the top of your app that you're listening to us on right now. Hit that subscribe sign, that check sign, that plus sign. The app will tell you, hey, these two jokers have a show on today. Then what you want to do is scrolling down, hit that five star review. Leave us some comments, because you know what I'm about to say. The big bad booty daddy of bourbon is going to come over to your house, dragging some wood for reserve. Heck, it's springtime out right now. We'll drink all day long, all day. By the end of the day, you're going to leave us that five star review. Those comments, I guarantee, but seriously, like Jim said, those reviews, those comments open up distilleries so we can record great shows, have great guests on like Chris Morse from Woodford Reserve, have great bourbon in our hands so we can review it. We'd really appreciate it.

All right. We'd love to hear what you think about the show. Mike told you how to leave a review for us and a five-star review is always preferred. But if you've got an idea for a show, if you've got a bottle that you would like to see us review, if you've got somebody you think would make a good guest on the show, we'd always love to hear about it. Go onto our website, TheBurbanRoad.com. Click on that contact us page and leave us a message. We'll be sure to get back to you on that. You can also send us an email. I'm Jim at TheBurbanRoad.com. He's Mike at TheBurbanRoad.com. But like we always say, probably the best way is to hit up our DMs on Instagram. I'm Jay Shannon, 63. I'm Big Bourbon Chief. And we'll see you down the Bourbon Road.