417. Hidden Barn with Jackie Zykan

Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of the Bourbon Road podcast. I'm your host, Jim Shannon. And I'm your host, Todd Ritter.

We've got a great show for you today. So grab your favorite pour and join us.

All right, listeners, welcome back for another episode of the Bourbon Road podcast. Today it's Todd Ritter and Jim Shannon. We're interviewing Jackie Zichen from Hidden Barn. We're pretty excited to have you here, Jackie. It's been a while since we had you on the show. I didn't take the time to go back before this episode and see when the last time you were on, but it's so good to have you back again.

Thank you very, very much for having me. I feel like, um, I don't do as many as I used to back in the day, but I'm really excited for the ones that I do get to partake in. So thank you. Thanks for the opportunity.

Absolutely. Well, uh, Todd and I are both familiar with your products, but we have three samples here that you sent to us and, uh, we're going to taste through those today. And, uh, what we really like to do is get straight to that first pour. So, um, in, in the first bottle that we're going to taste today, uh, you have sent us, uh, the hidden barn organic weeded bourbon whiskey. This is 106.2 proof. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Yeah. So this is, it's funny because this expression was literally meant to be released a year ago. And as a firm believer that everything happens when it should, how it should, regardless of what you want it to or not, the extra year of age on these barrels really did quite a service to it. I've been wanting to do an organic product for a while. It's just that sometimes sourcing that liquid is few and far between. But I did start a really fantastic relationship with the Journeyman Distillery up in Michigan. When i was working on a different consulting project for a brand lead by the baseball player drew store and he started the field of dreams brand. And so we source some liquid to balance out that mash bill from journeyman and. I had heard of journeyman minute had really highly rated them so of course they were on the radar in the periphery to a certain extent but. And so like actually going there and meeting them and just being The way that they operate is incredible. I mean, I think of myself as a busy person, but like, I don't know how they do it. Bill and Joanna are fantastic and they treat every single employee like family and everybody just, it's, it's a cultural thing that really drew me to them. And of course, a really high quality product. So, um, I've been digging through barrels at Journeyman for a while now and, um, Like I said, this particular expression for Hidden Barn was meant to come out about a year ago and it was meant to be something very different. Whiskey at the time was kind of taking a turn a little bit. So as much as we're still in the boom, I use quotes that nobody can see, but we're still in the, you know, whiskey has now kind of stabilized in its resurgence, right? Let's call it that at least. But there was a big slowdown of products at a certain price point and above. And I think that the market became incredibly saturated and distributors weren't taking on new brands. And it was a really hard sell because then all of a sudden we started having issues economy wise, election years are always tough and like things just start getting a little tighter. Right. And so we had actually originally thought to release a product that was more accessible in price point, if you will. It was going to be diluted down and we just, none of us could get on the same page about it. And then we had some interesting shifts internally as a team. And so this was kind of put on the back burner, but luckily journeymen held onto those barrels that I had tagged long ago. And now here they are in this beautiful blend. And I, no idea how it was going to be received. It's a weeder. Okay. I know that those who know that weeded whiskey doesn't necessarily mean it's going to lean less spicy. Weeded whiskey can have just the same amount of diversity to it as any other category of mashbill, if you want to call it that. But the vast majority of people assume weeded whiskey to be sweeter, not because wheat is sweet. Wheat is quite neutral. It's more so the neutrality of the wheat allows the sweetness of the corn to shine through. For this one in particular, I felt like it was going to have a little bit too much stark for the weeded whiskey fan, if you will. But apparently the weeded whiskey fans have a little bit of stark to them because it's been incredibly well received and I cannot wait for you guys. I'm so glad we're able to get you a sample so that you can taste it.

And let your listeners know firsthand what's going on there.

Um, I'm quite proud of the blend. I think it came together beautifully. And, um, I hope that everybody loves it as much as I do.

All right.

I'm so nervous right now.

What if they're like, that's hot.

I've had it to my nose here for a minute and it's very, um, It's actually, you're talking about it, having a little bit of, uh, I don't know, character behind it. And, and I've got it to my nose and I'm like, this is kind of soft a little bit on the nose for me, but well rounded, not overly out. How old is this?

This is coming in about six years old, if I remember correctly, a lot of like green apple, like and floral notes.

Yeah, it is. It is a bit floral. I was going to say, do you know much about how hard it is to be an organic product? I know organic farmers and they tell me about the trials and travails and how hard that is to be an organic farm. I'm curious how that relates to the bourbon world.

Uh, it's the same. They definitely make you earn it. Uh, fortunately I get to play with the paints and make a picture. I'm not the one who has to certify the paints as organic by any means. Um, but I do recall when we were going through this process, like, Oh my gosh, every week we would have a touch base and Royce was like, it's still going on. It's still, we're still waiting for this. We're still waiting for this. We're still waiting for this. It's just like, so drawn out. There's a lot of factors to that. I mean, like, that I don't even have to get into really. It's a pretty, pretty in-depth process, which as a consumer of mostly organic as much as I can products makes me actually kind of, like it sucks to be on this side of it, but in time it kind of makes you go like, okay, this is a good thing, right? If they're going to be really, really scrutinous and make it an intense process. We would have launched this thing months ago had it not been such an arduous process to get the organic certification on it. We were literally waiting until we could just pull the trigger on labels to get ordered and then you're back a couple weeks before labels get delivered before you can actually bottle and then get it registered and all this other stuff. It was an interesting experience, but Wes Royce's heart, he's the one that had to really go through that more so than myself, but I did hear about it and it did not sound fun at all.

That I've been sitting here as I was listening to you guys talk and I'm starting to narrow it down a little bit. Do you, I might be dating myself a little bit, but do you remember those little, um, little hand pies you would get, um, that were in kind of the wax wrapper and they, they had kind of a, a sugary glaze on the outside of them. You buy them in the store when you were a kid, little hand in the apple cinnamon. Yeah. The fruit pie host is fruit pies. I guess they were.

Yeah. They still sell those. You're not dating yourself. Like, oh yeah. Oh yeah.

I haven't shopped for them for a while, but I loved them as a kid. And this really reminds me of them. They probably used to be double the size when we were kids.

Exactly. They're definitely not organic. I'll tell you that.

All right. I'm ready to sip this. Cheers. Cheers.

Cheers. Oh, I hope you guys enjoy it. I am admittedly quite nervous right now. This is a very vulnerable moment, not going to lie. It's hard when you're the one making the decisions and you don't have like 13 levels of padding of approvals around you to like take the blame when things don't go well, right? So I get super nervous anytime anyone tastes any hidden barn stuff, not because I think it's going to go bad, but just because I'm like, this is literally going to fall straight on my lap.

No, it's perfectly great. I mean, for me, it really kind of passed over the front of the palette and kind of settled in on the mid palette. It matches the nose. So when I was getting that fruit pie on the nose, I'm getting the same thing on the palette and I'm getting a nice little spicy I don't know, kind of like a pop rocks effect on the mid, mid palette. Get a little bit of spicy.

I was going to say, yep. Yep. And it's a nice little like caramel drizzle that rather than like that sugar coating, it's got like a little bit of caramel. No going on. No, this is excellent.

Oh, thank you. Okay. Now we can, we got one. We got two more to go. Let's see. Yeah.

Yeah. The finish is, uh, it's medium on it and it's, it's pleasant. It does settle in for kind of a mild hug. I, uh, I think it's a well-balanced whiskey. It's a little light on the front of the palette. So when it comes across the front end, but you expect with something with 25% wheat to be a little bit softer upfront, I think. And it is, um, yeah, it's, it's very pleasant. Very nice.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's got like a little like white pepper finish.

I like it. It does have some character, doesn't it?

Definitely. Um, it definitely wakes you up a little bit on the back. And, uh, I like that. I like it a lot.

And I feel healthier because I'm drinking and it's organic. So

Oh Lord.

Well, little fruit pie without having to eat the fruit pie. How's that? That's right. It's actually, that's actually healthy, but Bravo, Bravo.

This was a totally different space to lean into, right? Because if you really consider it, and look at this transition, you're welcome. Everything Hidden Barn has done thus far has been pop-still distillate. So this is our first sort of expression that's utilizing column still. And I think that we were pretty vocal about the benefits of pot still from the get-go. And that wasn't to say there was anything wrong with column still. It's just a different beast, right? It's just getting a different result. I definitely think that this one, granted, you've got a different production facility, you've got a different mash bill. You've actually got with this particular product, the use of enzymes as opposed to the use of malted barley. So if you look at the mash bill, it's corn, rye and wheat. No barley in there. So it's a really interesting liquid to work with. And I think that really goes to show a lot of the gifts that come from the Coopridge. So as far as I understand it, these barrels were from ISC, which is great. And then any of the Neely stuff you're getting is going to come out of the Zach Coopridge. And I don't want to misspeak about the M.B. Rowland issue that we did for a while there. I would want to double check with them before like claiming what Cooperage they were using for their barrels. But the barrel is an integral part of the mix. And so, you know, you kind of just like you've got this whole like soundboard, right? If you adjust your levers accordingly to let different parts of the process show and shine. And I think with the Neely stuff in particular, obviously, the Zach Cooperage barrels are fantastic. They're two year seasoned oak. Um, but the production process and doing everything in a very low proof and everything in a very quote unquote rustic form, if you will, and doing everything more so, uh, old school, uh, shines through in a very different way than this particular product. But hopefully.

Love it.

And you know, in a job. So there you go. That's the best I can hope for right now.

Well, Jackie, can you tell us a little bit about kind of the history of the Neely family distillery and Hidden Barn and kind of, you know, give a little background to our listeners on that particular distillery and where it came from?

Sure. So the Neely distillery is located in Sparta, Kentucky. So if you've ever been to Louisville and if you've ever been to Cincinnati, it's in between those two and there you go. So it's like right north of Louisville, northeast. They have been making whiskey, moonshine, any sort of spirit possible for 11 generations now. And Royce is very proud to own the fact that he's the first generation to do it legally. So they've got a very, very interesting background in family heritage going on there. The whole place you go in there and like his sister's working as moms there like it's a whole family affair. And they're all just wonderful really really salt of the earth people are they're great to work with it when you walk in there like they immediately just treat you like family and that's really really special so.

They've been out there for a while that first.

Really come to maturity from that particular production site were in some of the first ones that hit barn actually so. what, carry the two, do some math on it. You're looking what, six, seven years back that they opened. I don't want to quote anything super, super specific about them because it's not like I have an office at Neely. I want to be very clear about this, but when Hidden Barn first started, it was Nate, Matt and Royce. And then they brought me in as a fourth partner after I had left Brown Foreman. And then after that we transitioned a little bit and realize where some of us wanted the brand to go and what our own capacities were for other things going on in our lives and now we have. Nate myself and Royce but Royce on behalf of the Mealy family distillery purchased the trademark to the hidden barn brand last December so. that is now, if you want to call it, it's a Neely family distillery brand at this point, just like they have other brands that they have under their umbrella. But I am an independent consultant on behalf of Hidden Barn. So therefore, as much as I would love to tell you like backwood stories about grandpa, I don't have those to share because the Neely history is just way too colorful and way too good for me to even do it justice attempting to share it. There is an opportunity if you ever find yourself out in Sparta, Kentucky, you can go visit and they do do tours. They've got warehouses out there. They'll take you through. They've got a bar. They've got everything. They make a lot of really, really cool stuff. So it's definitely worth a pop in if you're doing the bourbon tour for sure.

So this is a Sparta, Kentucky. This is right, basically right where the Kentucky speedway is right off of interstate 71. And there are a few bridges that cross the Ohio river between Indiana and Kentucky. And one of them happens to be very close to there.

Does that come through over near Carrollton?

Uh, it comes through, yeah, near the Belterra casino, not far from the racetrack. I think it's one of the reasons they chose that area there was because it had great access from Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Lexington, and Louisville. So it's kind of right. It really is. And, and so for the, the hidden barn distillery as well, I mean, you're right there in the core of those, you know, four major, um, centers of population. So it's a great spot. It's really a great spot. It's sort of an extended part of the Kentucky Craft Bourbon Trail, I think.

Absolutely. And it's in such a great, like that's a thoroughfare for anyone coming in between Cincy and Louisville, especially. Or I mean, I guess even Lexington ended up through that way, but it's a nice little day trip for anyone. And then make sure you keep heading up. And then what New Riff is right up there. If you go north just a little bit further and Uh, that whole area of Kentucky is really developed. Like there's some really, really great hotels and restaurants and whatnot up there. So yeah, don't sleep on Northern Kentucky.

Just going to say Augusta is not too far from there, right?

Augusta is a little bit further up the river from Covington, I think, but that whole beeline, that whole beeline organization that, that sort of, uh, uh, you know, promotes the distilleries and the breweries and the restaurants that are sort of bourbon focused is, uh, is really doing a great job of drawing attention to that area up there. Yeah. Um, boom County and, uh, new riff and, you know, there's a lot going on in Northern Kentucky for sure.

Yeah. And the best catfish I've ever had in my life period hands down. And that's a statement. That is a statement right there is in Carrollton at a place called jewels on Maine. So if you make it up to the newly distillery, you venture out in this direction, no matter what you have to find jewels on Maine and get the catfish. Trust me. Like. Oh, catfish can go wrong real quick. This one does not ever. I've tried it in different seasons, different times a day. Like, trust the catfish at Jewels on Main. They're not paying me to say that either. I just want to let you know that I'm just very passionate about it.

I just wrote that down. Oh, so I was looking for a pin.

Oh my gosh. So good.

That's so funny because I do travel that way a lot. I'm back and forth to Cincinnati to visit family and I drive right past Carrollton. Carrollton is kind of the halfway point for us. So I'm in Simpsonville near, not too far from Louisville. And when I, when I head to Cincinnati, it's like Carrollton, I'm like, okay, I'm at the halfway point. Well, maybe I'll just have to make a point of getting some catfish on the way up next time.

I'm telling you, it's seriously like, nevermind. You'll see, you'll see, you'll see.

All right. So we have three whiskies to get through here and I think we should try and do two in the first half here before we take a break. So the next bottle I've got my eye on here, Jackie, and, uh, this is called the series one cherry picker batch and, uh, same match bill as before 109.2 proof. Can you tell us a little bit about this one?

For sure. So this is coming out of Neely. Anything in series one is Neely distillate. So this is Pottsville. It's going into the barrel pretty low. It's a Zach Coopridge barrel, two-year seasoned oak. And it's a small batch. It's just like any of our other series one small batches. And when we first started, it was like batch one, batch two, batch three. And we quickly realized for the longevity of the brand, eventually we were going to end up with batch 100 whatever. So we're like, we need a different system. So we switched it over to, who else does it? Nate was the one that recommended we do this because another brand does it this way. I want to say it's one of the Heaven Hill brands maybe, where they list the year and then a letter after it. So it's like 24A, 24B, blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. The last batch that we had released was twenty twenty three b twenty twenty three b being the second batch of that that's the one that just did incredibly well that one best five year old small batch at sam fran. This batch that you have cherry picker is twenty four a. And we decided to switch again and just start naming batches instead of numbering batches because it makes it stand out more on a shelf. It's tough when you do very small batches and you do them, I don't know, quarterly on a shelf at a retailer, it gets to be kind of messy, especially when the batches are distinctively different in and of themselves. If the label, the colors are all the same, the only thing different is just some tiny little letters at the bottom. Sometimes it all gets kind of mixed around. So this one was named Cherry Picker. And you'll understand why once you actually get into that glass. There really was no other note that it could have been named after than that.

Okay. I was, I was kind of wondering if it was cherry picker due to the nose or cherry picker. Cause you cherry pick the best ones. So I didn't know if it was a double meeting.

Right. Yeah. Let's call it both.

That's, that's bright cherries to me all day. Yeah.

It's got cherries. It's also got a little bit of a buttery note to it too.

See, now we get to transition into that like gas station host this fruit pie, but the cherry one, like we've got a whole pie tasting going on here with these whiskies.

Wow. This is, this is really a great nose. I like this a lot and I'm picking up some, uh, some interesting like notes that I can't identify too. So there's, this is a bit complex on the nose, which is nice.

Now, Hidden Barn is pretty unique. They use the wooden fermentation tanks, right?

The cypress vats.

Cypress vats, that's right. Yeah.

Really carry over dimension. They're so seasoned, you know, after run, after run, after run. It makes a huge difference. And given that everything that's been produced out of Neely has been with the mindset of embracing its uniqueness as opposed to like, here's a paint by numbers, excuse me, a paint by numbers way of producing a product, right? Like consistency is great and it has its applications. This is not your brand for that. There's a common denominator. but that will always be something unique in that bottle for sure. And the Cyprus fermentation is a little bit rogue and it can kind of lead to some variation batch to batch for sure.

Yeah. It makes me think of those like Belgian brewers that use those a lot and get that wild yeast and that, that, you know, they talk about giving it kind of a funky, farmy flavor type thing for their lambiques and such.

That's exactly what I was thinking here as I was nosing. I mean, like this has got like a little bit of Belgian, like, I'm not going to call it funk, but it's got a little bit of Belgian sort of floral note to the nose. And is that due to the, is that due to the yeast or is that due to the vats?

It can be a little bit of everything. We are, with these particular products, anything coming out of the Neely distillery has used the wild yeast for fermentation. So Royce goes and collects wild yeast and call it Eastern Kentucky, call it, let's just make a whole umbrella and call it Appalachian yeast and call it a day. He learns how to capture yeast naturally from his Generations like that's just how you did it. You didn't go and order a jug of yeast from a lab supply company You literally hang yeast traps out by fruit bushes and let them sit there And then you replenish every year because it will morph and will get kind of weird and out of place after some time It's just going to keep reproducing and evolving. So he refreshes the Donna yearly.

I'm kind of curious about What is a yeast trap? Is that just like a bowl of sugar out in the open air or something? I mean, what is a yeast trap?

It's not sexy. It's a bucket. It's a bucket where you're literally like, it's a bucket hanging from a tree. It's so pure Kentucky. But yeah, basically.

This has just a mesmerizing nose on it. It's just, it's cause there's so much there that I can't I can't pick out. It's just, it's complex. There's a lot going on. It does remind me a lot of like a, like an Abby beer from Belgium or something. I don't know. It's, it's wonderful though. Cause that, that cherry note does really take over. It's strong, but it's more of like a bake, like a, like a chair, a baked cherry or a pastry or something. Of course we had that in the first one too, didn't we?

It's a bit of a savory note too.

Yeah. I got a little bit of like a buttery. I haven't even tasted it yet, but I'm ready. How about you, Todd? I am too. All right. Cheers. Cheers. Oh, wow. That is. Oh, again, that mouth feels. Yeah. It's a different animal than the first one. This one has a real kind of great texture to it. It has sort of a splash of sweetness that just hit me everywhere all at once.

Oh, that's lovely.

Yeah.

The nose comes off really bright, but this is a little darker fruits to me on the palette, which is kind of nice. Like it goes from bright cherries to like darker cherries on the palate.

I'm not nervous about you guys tasting this particular batch. Not that I have reason to be nervous about the weeded. It's just that I have had more experience with our series one batches at this point. And this is a very solid batch.

Yeah, this is very special. This is really good. I like it a lot. I'm typically not like a, a real big fan of sweet wash bourbons that hit your palate and just excite everything all at once because of the sweetness. But this is really good. I mean, this is delightful. Thank you. I'm glad I'm going to have a little bit of this leftover because I'm going to let my wife try it. She's going to really like this.

Awesome see and then now mission accomplished because the whole goal of this is not to make whiskey that I like to drink It's not to make whiskey that I think someone else likes to drink It's to make whiskey that people want to end up sharing with someone because they enjoy it so much. That's it That's it at the end of the day. We've done what we set out to do. So Thank you All right.

Well Jackie Todd, I think we oughta Make this a point to break on and we'll take a short break here. I want to continue to sip on this while we're pausing for a few months before the second half listeners. We got another great expression coming up in the second half. More discussion with Jackie about Hidden Barn and the things that they're doing. So stick around. We will be right back.

All right, welcome back, roadies. We're here at the second half of our talk with Jackie Zykan, and we've just had her hidden barn organic weeded and her cherry picker batch, and they've both been very good. So we're getting ready to dive into this third pour. So let's get into it.

All right, Jackie, what do we have in this glass here?

So this third and final pour for you all is actually also coming out of the Neely Distillery, what started as a five-year product. and then went into secondary barreling into French oak and sat there for two whole years. So this collectively is a seven year old whiskey. And I cannot wait for you to taste this one. It's interesting. So when I go and I approach a blend, I will pull from whatever is, I never pull anything less than four years old ever.

Like it's, I'm not like a agist by any means. It's just that like,

My personal experience and in this particular lot of barrels, four years old is the minimum for me.

Um, you've been doing this while.

I've been doing this a while.

Yeah.

So it's like, okay, we're not going to, we're not going to mess with that. But, um, not to say there isn't less than four year old age product out there. That's been really like surprising and great. Um, just for this particular brand, that's where we are. And I'll usually go and like, okay, you get your inventory sheet and here's what's available and you pull samples and you do a quick little like pass fail. And then you pull full samples and then you go and tinker with them forever and ever. And it's a whole process of. When a meets b does it. Is it hating itself like what's happening here who's making the best party is basically what's going on. Blending in and of itself is not. One plus two is three process for me in particular i don't know everyone's got their own approach. And I get asked this all the time, like, oh, we'll teach a blending class. And it's like, I can't. That doesn't mean I can't blend whiskey. It's just that the way in which I do it is a much more intuitive process. It's not, I can't give you like a handbook and say like, do this and make this happen. It's very, it's very personal. And so I spend a lot of time constructing these blends and it's, it's a whole ordeal. I went out to the distillery one day. was out there actually with Becca Royce's wife. And she was like, Hey, we've got a bunch of random stuff laying around that Royce put into finishing barrels. Like, do you want to taste some of it? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. Like, why not? Let's just see. And there were these seven barrels and it was like one after another. I tasted it and was like, don't touch that barrel. Don't use that barrel for anything else. Just hold that barrel. Like dude, I swear to God, I'll be so pissed if you guys put that in anything else, but hold it, hold it, hold it. You get through seven of these barrels that have gone through this finishing and this French oak. And without even playing with it, I said, just combine them there. Every single one of them is perfect. They're not the same. They're all perfect in a different way. Just combine them and we'll see what happens to the point. I didn't even charge a blending fee for this particular expression. I was just like, do it, just dump them together. And don't you dare dilute it. Like leave it exactly as it is. It's perfect. And I got really nervous because maybe what if I was just having like a weird day that day and I was like, why not just dump all these barrels like it did not backfire. This is one of the The blend is fantastic. The age of it and the additional oak on it is served really, really well. If you're familiar with Series 1 from Hidden Barn, that coming out of the Neely Distillery can have a lot of oil, can have a lot of viscosity, and it still holds on to quite a bit of grain in its flavor profile, not because it's young, but because it's distilled at a low proof, it's in the barrel at a low proof. You're tasting every part of the process. that additional grain support in the flavor profile, when you extend the finishing and when you complicate it with a second type of oak on it just plays beautifully. So I am so excited for you to see this. I will stop talking that you enjoy it. I'm really nervous. What if you don't? And I just really churched it up. But we'll get there.

It's all good.

I think so for the color alone.

I was going to say it's twice as dark as the other two.

But it has that same similar buttery note on it that I got on the last, on the last one.

It was like a little mint here in the background, like kind of teasing.

It's a little nuttier, a little nuttier for spending that much time and oak and getting a fresh introduction to French oak. I don't think it, I don't think it's like, it doesn't have this big oak blast to it. It's just, uh, got a nice little nutty finish on it.

This is what was so weird. I expected it to, anytime you double down on new oak, um, kind of nervous, right? Is it going to come across tight? Is it going to be, is it going to be like chewing on a coffee table? Like, I don't know, like what's going to happen here. This one, just the balance of it just works incredibly well. It just did.

Now, do you know what's the French oak barrel toasted and charred?

Yes.

Okay.

All right. I'm ready to taste it. Cheers. And this is still that 70, 2010, correct? Yeah. Cheers.

I'm so scared right now.

This is very well balanced across the whole palette. It's got a nice, it does carry that nutty note. I love it. It's not, not too much Oak at all. It's just the right amount. Buttery rich. It does have a little bit of a, like a minty kind of light minty note to it.

Yep. Man. I love this.

Maybe even just a little in ease. Where's that coming from?

On the finish?

Yeah.

Is that where you're finding it? Yeah. I remember that too, because that was a note that I found in a lot of other brands, which I won't name, that is not necessarily a super common for Hidden Barn. But nonetheless, it is definitely there. It was almost like a, These mints, it was almost like a eucalyptus-y kind of cooling, interesting little tickle in there, but- Good call out.

Yeah. You can say it's kind of fresh. It's kind of fresh, but by the same token, it's complex. It's well-balanced. It's got a nice, tremendous texture to it.

Get some nice berry notes on that. Yeah, I like this a lot.

So I can draw some parallels to the cherry picker a little bit, and I can tell there's some similarities there. It's almost like I can pick up this hidden barn profile a little bit. This Neely family profile that is, I'll just use the word again, delightful. It's very nice.

Oh, thank you. It's so interesting to me because had these barrels sat one month longer, moment would never exist. They were literally perfect. That exact moment when they were sampled, they weren't even supposed to be sampled, but we sampled them and I was like, dump it now immediately. It's so rare to find multiple barrels that are just just timed and ready to go. And yeah, what a risk to just go, I don't know, dump it all together and see what happens. Like it's a very expensive risk to take if this one didn't work out well, because wood is not cheap. So Um, turned out the way it did though, for sure. It was a no brainer.

Barrels are quite expensive. So, um, you know, invest investing in a second new chart, especially a French oak barrel, um, is not, you don't do that just without strong consideration because of the cost involved.

Absolutely.

So does, uh, does the distillery really focus mainly on the 70, 20, 10, or the, I guess the first one we had was a 70, 25, five, but it's a 70, 20, 10 of the most common mash bill at, uh, at hidden barn.

Yes, that is the Neely, um, flagship bourbon mash bill that they roll with.

So Jackie, when you're blending, I mean, are you looking, do you go in with expectations of what you're wanting to get out of? You know, you kind of know what's going to be, you know, certain characteristics in those barrels. Are you, do you go in looking to highlight certain things in those or just kind of like mad scientists and.

It's not haphazard and random. This seven year old situation was kind of like, I don't know. This could be fun. Why not? But it is definitely not as loosey goosey as that most of the time. I have not yet I'm getting more familiarized with it, but I have not yet mastered understanding the inventory at that particular location for a couple of reasons. In past life, I had gotten to that point with other inventory because it was a more consistent warehousing situation and because the goal of it was always consistency and it was column still and it was not wild yeast and like there were all those variables were taken out. So really, I don't think there'll probably ever be a time when I get to a point of going to Neely and going, okay, I'm going to construct a blend and I'm going to need X amount from that side of that warehouse and X amount from this side of that one, et cetera, et cetera, so on so forth. It's you start from scratch every single time. But with Hidden Barn in particular, I never go in with a with an agenda of anything other than balance and cohesion and quality, really. The batches as they come together, each one is incredibly unique, but each one does still maintain that common denominator of Neely profile because it has to it's going to no matter what Neely juice. But outside of that, like some of them have been a little bit spicier than others. Some of them have been a little bit sweeter, some have been fruitier. It just kind of depends what's on hand at the time.

which is great.

It's kind of like embracing the nuance of a single barrel, but it's in a smaller batch. So if you want more, you can always find more. Beautiful thing. So yeah.

So let's talk a little bit about the distillery. What can visitors expect as they're coming down I-71? Let's say they're coming out of Cincinnati and they're coming down I-71 and they want to stop in. And the sign's real prominent on the interstate there. You can't miss it. What can they expect on a visit to the distillery?

Well, you're coming from Cincinnati, coming down 71, you're going to take a right on that exit, and then you can expect a giant gas station at a McDonald's, where I admittedly have had to have lunch too many times to count. And then you're going to keep going, you're going to turn right, you're going to see this tiny little setup, the Neely family distillery, and it looks like Not much. It's small compared to if you're going to Buffalo Trace. It's a totally different experience than when you're coming out to a craft distillery. So you go in and they've got an amazing gift shop. They've got all of their products there and they make all sorts of different whiskeys. They have a lot of different brands now. They make a really killer absinthe if you're into that scene. And they do a lot of different liqueurs and such. So they really do have something for everybody, not just the purest bourbon drinker. They've got a great bar in there. There's always someone making cocktails. They do a tour where you get the whole family history and then you go through the entire production floor and see those Cypress bats. You see all of the Popsvilles, you see their absence still that they have, and you go out to the warehouses and then you sip a bunch of really good juice. And if you're lucky, you get followed around by Thumper, who is the distillery cat and my best helper when I go out to pull samples. But Royce is usually there. Becca is usually there. His wife, his mom and dad are usually around. His sister is always like literally like the whole family is always there. So it's a really nice sort of just casual, quick pop in. And it's a really great peek into kind of an interesting side of the roots of the bourbon industry, really, because I know that we think of distilled spirits. the skeleton in the closet of the distilled spirits industry in America anyways you think of moonshiners but now when you've got quote unquote moonshine sharing a shelf with other brands you think of it as being something that's not at I don't know you don't think of it as being like the precursor but it really is like distilling is distilling is distilling and you're dealing with When you have 11 generations of handed down knowledge, not necessarily written down, like especially we're doing things illegally, like this is a lot of like, let me show you and you've got a lot of ingenuity and you've got a lot of like short strapped situation, figure it out. And with that just comes really, really interesting ways of kind of a For lack of a better word, manipulating the production process to get what you want out of it. If there's just a lot more soul to it, there's more depth to it. And that definitely comes through, I think, in the products that they make for sure.

Yeah, I feel like the profile is very distinct. It has this flavor and this aroma that is not like a lot of other distilleries out there. What do you think in what they do? Lit leads to that specific profile. Is it, is it the yeast? Is it the pot still, is it some process that they use? Is it a combination of all of those things?

I mean, Well, it's certainly a combination of all of the things, but I do think that the wild yeast element is providing quite a bit of diversity from the get go, which diversity is key to making something dimensional when it comes to whiskey. Pot still, anyone can have a pot still. You know what I mean? Like pot still has a very certain je ne sais quoi, if you will. Like you can taste the difference between a pot still versus a column still. If you had the exact same mashable, the exact same yeast, like you would taste a discernible difference between the two of them, especially texturally as well. But I think that that yeast is definitely something that is making a huge impact in what flavors are even available after the fact. Interesting because we talk about you sweet, I don't know, I guess, like on a very, like, simplified scale, you talk about esters forming and you talk about fruity notes, like, oh, it's the East, it's the East. And it's like, that's true, but it's not the whole truth. esterification can happen in any situation in which you've got natural organic acids in combination with alcohol. And so when barrels are maturing, they are forming esters within that barrel. The interesting part of this, though, and why I say the yeast is so impactful with Neely is because when you're using two-year seasoned oak, really stripped out a lot of the acid from that wood in the first place. So if you are getting massive ester presence

it's most likely coming from that yeast influence as opposed to the maturation side of it.

But then again, things form and dissolve and form and dissolve and it's a huge dynamic process. So we can't ever say like it's exactly this, that, whatever. But They've got a very like, well, let's try it and see if it works mentality out there. And they do everything with very strict quality at the forefront. And then after that, they have no rules. They just do whatever they want. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing when it comes to trying to make something unique.

I think something magical is happening there. It's very unique to the, or they call it terroir, right? It's like whatever they're doing and their stuff, you know, it kind of works for them and, and nobody can duplicate that. That's kind of their thing. And if you want it, you got to go there to get it or find it on the shelf. Wow.

Absolutely.

So Jackie, do you happen to know the MSRPs on these three bottles off the top of your head or roundabouts?

Well, I want to say series one is 70 bucks a bottle, but I've seen it priced all over the place. I've seen it 55 to 85 a bottle, but 70 is kind of the sweet spot. The seven year, I want to say we list the 85 or 89 and then the organic was probably either 60 or 70. I know, shouldn't I know this information? I probably should. But anymore, I like the way that my career has shifted, I focus on what it is that I do and what I do very well. And then I leave the rest of it to everyone else. So I probably don't make the best podcast guests anymore. But If you want to talk about blending, I'm here for you. We got that all day long. As far as the marketing side, though, I've kind of removed myself from that piece of it to just kind of focus on my skillset. It's okay.

We appreciate the talk on his sterification, so we're good. That's right. We're kind of nerdy with it. I love it.

I was just going to ask, so now that you're more on the craft side of things, do you find you appreciate it more now than you did before kind of thing? Like craft distilling? Because I know you guys have also worked with MB Rowland too.

Yeah, I think that. Our main driver and who we work with has to do with the people and the culture of these brands and their emphasis on why they're doing what they do because there are still a lot of. You want to call it a craft distillery based on its volume production. Within that mix, there's still a lot of people that are like, I'm going to start a distillery so I can sell it. And that's our only goal is to make this scalable and sellable and that's it. And then you meet some of the others that are there going like, no, like I want to make this so that my kids always have this or so that, you know, then there's, there's just different motivations behind it and you, you can know within the first five minutes of having meetings with some of these other brands of what their intentions really are. And I'm not here to say that like, there's anything wrong with trying to make a business like, Oh, go do that. Like, that's fine. It's just that that Find other brands that are aligned with a focus on quality and integrity is really, really key to Hidden Barn. So we have done that. But as far as my perspective on craft distilleries, I never necessarily had an opinion on it one way or the other. I do think that I had less exposure to some of the ones out there when I was kind of, you know, in an ivory tower somewhere, whatever. You come to appreciate it more so because you meet the people behind it on a much more intimate level. And I think that that is really, really important. And when you start a craft brand, you start to appreciate it even more because you realize how hard these people really, really work to get stuff done and try to compete with people that have thousands of people working on one brand at a time. So, yeah, it's actually quite impressive. The blood, sweat and tears that goes into some of the craft brands. of bourbon out there these days.

So we're at the tail end of a bourbon heritage month. I guess bourbon heritage month tends to extend into October a little bit. So, but, uh, we're kind of at the end of the season here and you're probably looking to 2025. Uh, what kind of things are on the horizon for Jackie and hidden barn? I mean, you guys must have some things in the works, maybe something you could talk about something you can't. I don't know.

I mean anymore. I'm like, I don't know. We just released that seven year and well, I guess a minute ago, but that we just released that organic. Um, so that I don't know that we have anything, a shiny new object coming out anytime soon. I've got a bunch of Madeira finish samples sitting on my kitchen counter right now that I'm coming to terms with. So we have done two releases of Madeira finish. Um, And they both have been absolutely wonderful. So now the pressure is on to like, make sure they're absolutely perfect every time. Um, so we won't release it until it's done, but that will be coming out. I don't want to say when, but it will be coming out, uh, in the future soonish. Maybe. I don't know. It depends on whether or not the labels show up in time. You know what I mean? There's a million different factors, but it'll be maybe 2025 when the next Madeira comes out. Maybe. I don't know.

What about a rye?

What about a rye? You know? I appreciate rye. I am personally not a rye whiskey drinker myself. I have more of a sweet tooth than that, but Neely does have some really, really good rye whiskey barrels out there. So we could always play with those. We're going to tinker around with some more finishes, not because like there's nothing else to do. It's just that it's really interesting. I know some finishes have been just like fatigued and overdone and it's just, it's old. But the way that the base liquid from Neely is working within some of these secondary barrels is actually very different. And so it's interesting to kind of see where that goes. Do you want us to do a rye? Should we have like a people's vote and be like, what do you want it? Because we can do anything.

Well, can I make a special request? I was going to say you're talking to two rye fans. I'm going to say you make Absinthe, so let's do an Absinthe finished rye.

But Absinthe is such a polarizing flavor for the American palate.

I know, but that's why it's such a delicate touch to do it. You got to be so careful. I mean, you just got to be careful because it just almost has to touch it and just sit there for a few days.

Yeah, it can escalate very quickly.

Some have done it very well. I've had a few in the past that I thought were really good. I don't know. You're right. It's all, it's all about selling bottles and selling an absent finished whiskey is not an easy thing. So I can understand if you don't do it.

Yes, but it's interesting. I don't know. Now that you make my brain start spinning in a million ways and I'm like, yeah, but we can run anything off of that absence. Still, it doesn't have to necessarily be absent. It can be any mixture of botanicals and age it in a barrel and then use that barrel as a finishing barrel. So like this opens up a whole different world. Nonetheless, You will keep seeing more releases. The organic is not a one and done. That will continue. Series one, the cherry picker that you guys had will keep continuing. And if everybody keeps loving cherry picker as much as they have been, then I'm going to have to put another batch together because we're going to be out of it real soon. Which is, these are good problems to have.

I can see where if you guys are holding tastings at the, at the distillery there and people get that cherry picker in their glass, they're probably buying bottles of it. No doubt.

Oh yeah. For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, uh, I don't know. We will see. We've talked about doing a ride. Of course, we've talked about doing a rye. But if I'm going to do a rye, I don't want it to just be a rye. It needs to be the best damn rye possible and it needs to be a little bit, it needs to be its own individual, you know, not to get lost in the other ryes. So, we'll figure it out.

Got it.

I'm curious to know if there's any eight-year barrels that are sitting, like you've got seven of those anywhere that you're like, because I've about finished my seven-year here. It's delicious. I love it.

I mean, I can't give away all the secrets because then we won't have anything to talk about the next time we have a podcast together. Right. So you'll have to wait for the surprise.

But Bravo.

Thank you. Thank you.

Well, Jackie, it's been an absolute pleasure to drink through your whiskies here tonight. And I have to say that you're blending is you're at the top of your game. You've always been at the top of your game, but you continue to be at the top of your game. We've really enjoyed all three of these. They were all good in their own way. I think personally. Um, I've, I've kind of leaned a little towards the pot still, the Neely family, uh, liquid. It, it just has this wonderful, unique profile that just, I don't know. I could, I'm really drawn towards it and I like it a lot. So not to say that the, uh, the weed, it wasn't good. It was wonderful, but that's, you said that was out of a Michigan distillery, right? Yeah. Well, we'd love to get out to the distillery sometime and walk through it with you. Todd and I get out from time to time every now and then. We don't do all our podcasts on StreamYard. It just seems like some of them are on here and some of them are out and about and in person. I always liked the in-person ones, Jackie. And I think the last time we had you on, we were sitting across from you at a table and drinking through some great whiskeys. And we've just had such a wonderful time tonight.

So have I. Thank you very, very much. And you know, maybe we will have to do one at the distillery and then Royce can give you some more deeper information about their history specifically. And maybe we'll crack open some rye barrels and kind of brainstorm what we're going to do with that. Just saying, maybe. Absolutely. I don't know.

Well, we certainly encourage our listeners to check out, uh, the Neely family distillery and hidden barn and Jackie's I can, I'm assuming, uh, uh, they can reach out to you at a website and social media. Can you tell us a little bit about those?

Yeah. Um, my Instagram is just Jackie's I can J a C K I E Z Y K a N all one word. Um, and I think everything kind of funnels out of there. So you can always find me there or just randomly around. I guess I'm all over the place.

Well, awesome. Thank you for sharing your whiskey with us tonight. We've had a wonderful time. We've enjoyed all three of them and we hope our listeners will, uh, we'll venture out and visit the distillery and, uh, and, uh, look for these bottles on the shelf. I think it's, uh, it's been a great show. I've had a lot of, a lot of fun. How about you, Todd?

Oh yeah, this was great. Thank you so much for, for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me.

I've saved, uh, I've saved a few precious ounces of this cherry picker bash to give my wife. I think she's going to absolutely love it. Yay.

Thank you for sharing it.

All right. Well, you can find the bourbon road on all social media. You can find us on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, tick tock threads, all those things. You can also find us on our website, the bourbon road.com there. You'll find all of our episodes, our articles. Uh, our swag got to get that bourbon road shirt, uh, that bourbonista shirt for the ladies. We're always having fun. We do an episode every single week on Wednesdays. Keep an eye out for us. You can always scroll to the top of the app. You're on hit that subscribe button that way. That way when Jim and Todd drop another episode, you get that notification and, uh, You know, we'll, we'll make that drive a little easier for you, that cutting grass a little easier for you, that cleaning house a little easier for you, whatever it is you're doing, where you just want to put something, uh, on the headphones and relax. We'd love to be part of your day, but until the next time we'll see you down.

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