488. Building a Bourbon Legacy: Saga Spirits Group with Wes and Brian

Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of the Bourbon Road Podcast. I'm your host, Jim Shannon. And I'm your host, Todd Ritter.

We've got a great show for you today. So grab your favorite four and join us.

Hello there, this is Drew Hanisch of Whiskey Lore and I'm so happy that the Bourbon Road guys are going to let me promote a little bit about my new book coming out called Experiencing American Whiskey. It is a travel guide to whiskey distilleries in the entire United States. Lots of details in this book to help the traveler along the way and I'll tell you more about it at the break.

All right, listeners, welcome back to another episode of the Bourbon Road podcast. As always, it's Todd Ritter and Jim's with me today, but we've got a couple of guests today. And then we're going to kind of do this in two halves, if you will, aren't we Jim?

That's right. This is kind of something new for us. We haven't done this before, but I'm excited.

Yeah. It's kind of like a Superbowl. We're a little late, but so we have Wes Henderson and Brian Gelfo. Wes Henderson is the The man that was once behind Angel's Envy and now has his new brand called True Story. And Brian Guelfo is actually a good, I can call him a friend because we've met and shared pores before. And he's with Brothers of the Leaf and they're all under Saga Spirits.

LLC or is it just Brian or Saga Spirits Group? It's the company that Wes founded with his six children, six sons.

Wes, Brian, welcome to the show.

Hey guys, thanks for having us. Much appreciated. All right.

So our plan is to kind of go, we're going to start with Wes and true story. He's got the lower proof. So it kind of makes sense. And, you know, we put Brian in the back.

Well, we generally do that anyway with Brian. I'm used to it.

So one of the first things we like to do is get to that first pour, Wes. So you want to tell us a little bit about this first pour?

Sure. That would be great. And once again, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. This is this is these are fun whiskeys. All of them are true story Brothers of the Leaf, both both both a lot of fun. And I think as you'll see when you taste them here in a few minutes, they're just well constructed. very approachable, nuanced, and kind of what you would expect from us, I believe, you know, with, you know, Dad creating Woodford Reserve and Gentleman Jack and Jack Daniels' Single Barrel, and then me creating Angel's Envy. And, you know, I think that's kind of those are the things that, you know, people who like our whiskeys would expect. But the first one we're going to drink is True Story Bourbon. And Brian, Brian's holding up the picture for the video that we don't have here on the podcast, but that's okay. Good. Very good. It's a black bottle. It's a black opaque bottle. And we can talk about that if you'd like, as we go along here, but that, which is definitely kind of groundbreaking by itself. But the bourbon is a Kentucky street bourbon whiskey finished in white Muscatel. and Muscatel barrels and this is something that my boys, I've got four of my boys, my six boys are involved in the business and this is something that they really wanted to do and they searched for these barrels, they picked them out and we felt like it would be a great place to start with True Story Bourbon. It's a four to six-year-old whiskey. It's a blend of Green River and Barton, which we're very proud of. We think those are phenomenal whiskeys. And just like with Angel's Envy, even though we source our initial barrels, we do the blending, we do the finishing, we do the bottling ourselves in our own facility. So our fingerprints are all over it, as somebody said to me the other day. I kind of like the way that sounds. Unless it's the police, then you probably don't want to hear that. So guys, there you go. We've got in front of you if you'd like to start. Sure. Feel free.

Muscatel is a pretty unique finish. There's not a whole lot of them out there. I mean, there's surely, you know, everyone's trying everything. So there's a few out there. So what kind of drove you to go this way with the Bourbon?

I think that the muscatel is just very complimentary to the bourbons that we chose to start with, and the mashbills that we have, and the taste profile. It adds just a tiny bit of sweetness on the back of the pal, but not much. And what it does, though, it really... As finishing does, it adds another nice layer to it. But more than anything, I think it softens it and it takes a 90-proof bourbon and makes it a lot more approachable, a lot more drinkable. I say it's kind of the best of both worlds. It's great for people who are new to the category because it's so approachable, but it's still complex enough that you can enjoy it if you're a more experienced bourbon drinker. So it's kind of the best of both worlds, and it's hard to be that way. Um, so you've got it in front of you. I mean, I see you guys are nosing it right now. And, um, I think it's some, some familiar notes there. Um, nice Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey notes.

Um, colors underneath is definitely, uh, you know, kind of some traditional bourbon notes, but you get this freshness, the sweetness, this lightness that comes from the Muscatel and it just enhances that bourbon note.

It smells like a spring day to me. I mean, today was a gorgeous day in Kentucky. And yeah, it's just really bright, a little bit like some orchard going on there. Now, for those that might not know, Wes, what exactly is Moscatel?

Muscatel is a Spanish wine. It's in the same kind of family as a sherry you would see, so it just got some different nuances with the grape and the different flavors. We have a broker that sources them for us. We've always looked for finishing to be an enhancement of the bourbon. I think everybody kind of agrees now that, and I was never comfortable saying this till everybody else started saying it, that at Angel's Envy, we started the finishing craze with American whiskeys. And I think one of the reasons it works so well for us is that we're really good at pulling out those different layers, and you'll definitely see it in the rye. but taking finishing barrels that are complimentary, but at the same time, add additional depth. And that's what finishing is all about, by the way. You've got to start with good whiskey and kind of garbage in, garbage out. And if it's not good whiskey to start with, finishing is probably not going to save it. It may mask some things, it may do some other stuff, but at the end of the day, you've got to have good whiskey to start with. You've got to have good finishing barrels. And I think that's what we've got here. We've got a balanced, and as you taste it, I'll be quiet and let you guys taste it. And then I'd love to hear some more of your thoughts, you know, on the nose, and then when you taste it. I'll say cheers.

Yeah, cheers. Sorry, I took a sip already. It was too inviting not to.

Oh, that's nice. I think Muscatel is probably something that's largely, um, missing from the finished bourbon landscape. I mean, it's not something that you really see or hear about there. So it's, it's nice to, I'm always looking for something that, um, piques my interest, gets me going, gets me interested. And certainly a new finish is something that always gets me interested.

As you said, and there's no doubt about it, there's so many different finishes out there now. Almost too many in a lot of ways. I used to always say that people would come to me about innovation and things like that. Especially at Engels Envy, when you're part of a big company, there's this push sometimes to innovate just for the sake of innovation or just for the sake of beating a number or selling cases or whatever. There's a couple things I've always believed. Number one, I always want to be part of the discussion as far as bourbon. I want the things we create to be part of the discussion. And the other thing was, we're really not going to say anything unless we've got something to say. And that's where it comes back to innovation. We're not going to put something out in innovation just to put something out. And I think the Muscatel has something to say because it is unique and it fits in kind of with our philosophy on how innovation should work and how we bring things to market. So I think that that's You know, like you mentioned, you don't see it, which is great. That doesn't mean there's a reason to do it. It's still got to work. You know, right. It's still got to be good. You know, there are some barrels out there that should never be part of finishing. I can't tell you off the top of my head what they are, but we've tried some that that are just kind of eh. So but but but yeah, I think we did. I think we nailed it with this one. I hope you guys and I hope you guys like it.

It was actually very, very nice, very delicious, very complimentary of the bourbon that lies underneath, no doubt.

And I'm still getting that orchard vibe. I'm getting like a little bit of grapiness, a little bit of apples, a little, maybe even some tropical fruit in there.

I mean, this is springing a glass to me right now. I think you can get, I get like orange blossom, honeysuckle sometimes, stone fruits like apricot and peach as well. You know, there's just, there's so much there, maybe a little bit of citrus, which goes very well with bourbon. You know, we've paired our chocolates with hints of orange zest and things like that. And they like orange zest in an old fashioned as an example. I think those work very well also.

You know, Todd and I sometimes like to assign seasons of drinkability to whiskeys. And, you know, at first nose and first taste of this, you start to think about, you know, spring, summer, early fall. But I'm sure as a whisky maker, you're like, no, no, drink it all year round. You can drink it all year round.

And of course we say that. I mean, of course, drink it all year round.

If you've got the winter blouse, you know, you can always pour it and you're like, oh, it feels like spring, right?

Well, I think that's where, look, I mean, I think an argument can be made that you can drink whiskeys almost any season. You know, there are just some that we feel go better certain times of the year where you really can get expressive with seasonal drinking and with spirits really probably comes in a cocktail, you know, more than anything. And how does that fit in a cocktail? And how does that? And I think this works great. The 90 proof. It makes it sturdy enough in a cocktail. The price point's great for cocktails. It's only $59 retail, as a general rule, suggested retail. These are things that you guys know very well, and the people that are listening, that are bourbon nerds like we are, they drink cocktails. Cocktails can bring that seasonality to But you can take you can take bourbon or whiskey and you can make it a summer cocktail. You can make it light. You can make it, you know, something you want to sit by the fire. And, you know, virtually any season you can turn it into that season. But I like the way you describe them, by the way, I like the way you guys take seasonality and layer that. And I think that's really cool.

So what was behind the name of the brand, the true story?

You know, I sign a lot of bottles and one thing that people say to me fairly often is they say, hey, I'm not going to open this because you signed it. And my answer to that is there's so many stories inside that bottle. You just need to open it and share it with your friends. And really that's where, kind of how the thought of True Story started. And then there are other storytelling things. You know, bourbon is about storytelling. I mean, actual bourbon itself is about storytelling because there's so many stories behind the bourbons and whiskeys. But it really starts the discussion And I've had a lot of moments in the bourbon world where I've sat down all over the world with folks over whiskey. And and you open that bottle and the stories start rolling out. And, you know, I also say, I don't care if it's a true story or not, you know, as long as it's a story, it can be bullshit. You know, I just got us an explicit rating, by the way, probably on the podcast. But I'm saying that probably if you had Fred Noon here, it's not the first time that's probably ever happened. But I haven't dropped any F bombs yet and I won't. But I think that, you know, that's really where it all came together is all those, some of those magic moments I've had. And I've had really, you know, there are moments I really think about, you know, when I'm with a group of people and I think, wow, This is amazing what's happening here right now. And look, we're not curing cancer by making whiskey. I get it. But we are making something that people sit and enjoy and they bring into their lives for moments that matter. And moments that matter can be a good day at work, a bad day at work. I went to a funeral for a dear cousin of mine today and I slipped a mini bottle of Angel's Envy in the casket with him. How about that? So that's something to talk about. And he was such a huge Bourbon fan and such a huge supporter of me and as a family member and everything like that. But that's a story, right? You know, so that's what True Story is all about. I know it's a long winded answer, but I think it's kind of a cool way that it all came together.

Absolutely. Well, Todd, what do you think? Should we move on to the rye? Let's move on to the rye.

All right. The rye is a, I describe it a lot of different ways, but there's probably three or four ways that I'd generally say. The first thing of it is it's a flavor bomb. It is a rye whiskey finished in Ambarana and Sherry casks. So it's a total of four different barrels throughout the process. The original aging barrel, some of it's finished in Ambarana, some of it's finished in PX Sherry casks, and some of it's finished in Olroso Sherry casks. This is a blend of New Riff and MGP. And which are two, as everybody knows is listening to this, probably are two great whiskeys. But those Ambarana casks and the sherry casks just give it so many layers of flavor. I like to watch people taste it. The first thing I like to watch, too, is I get people that say, I don't like rye. And then they take a sip of this and like, holy crap, this doesn't taste like any ride that I've ever had. And then I watched the wheel. I can see the wheels turn as you guys drink it, you'll see, you'll understand what I'm talking about. There's so much flavor there and so much depth and layers in that whiskey that I can literally see the wheels turning. in people's heads when they drink it. It's 100 proof. You'd never know it. If I hadn't told you or you see it on the bottle, it doesn't drink like 100 proof at all. I think it's a special whiskey. I really do. There's just something fun. The other word I used to describe it as fun. It's fun. It makes the best old fashioned you'll ever have. And weird, I was drinking a whiskey soursie the other day and somebody was making espresso martinis with it, which is crazy. Yeah, right. And I don't drink espresso, so I don't know. I can't be a judge of how it tastes, but I'm told that those cinnamon notes that are there and that's the Ambarana, by the way. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, guys, on the nose to start. If you don't mind kind of sharing some of that with me, that'd be great.

Well, the Ambaran is definitely present on the nose. And when you read the description of the whiskey, you think, oh my goodness, these are going to be some loud flavors. You know, these are going to be some things that sing out when I try to nose and taste this whiskey. And, uh, and with four barrels, you certainly didn't cut any corners. I mean, that's not, um, you know, that's not cheap to include four barrels in a finishing process, but I'm kind of curious how. You managed to balance kind of the cinnamon bomb notes of the Ambarana against the rye and not drowned it out, but you did. You did. I'm pacing it, I've nosed it and I'm like, wow, it's still there.

You know, you can, I love it that you picked all that up. You know, Ambarana can be very heavy handed. And I think one of the mistakes I see, there's not a lot of Ambarana finished whiskeys out there in the first place. And I don't know of any others. We have the actual Ambarana barrels. We're not using staves. We're not putting, you know, wood in the barrel or wood chips or anything like that. What I see is they're over amber on it and it's it's it's easy to do But we were able to bring out what I think are the best parts of the amber on a but not mute the sherry, the two different sherry casks. And I use the word layered all the time with this thing. You can take a sip of it, put it down and set it on your palate for a minute. And you still get the spice of the rye on the back of the palate too. So it doesn't completely bury the rye, but it hits you in a different place. It's not this rye forward, the spice forward. It kind of comes to you later as it goes down your palate. So you get kind of the joy of those flavors that we love, the cinnamon, the vanilla, all those things up front. And then you get the spice on the back of it. But I'm glad you noted that, you know, the kind of that balance and how hard it can be with Ambarana to get that.

Yeah, we've certainly had our fair share of those, right, Todd, of Ambaranus that are a little overdone. Yeah, we've had a few.

I think it's like chai spice to me, especially with that rye. It's like a chai latte kind of thing. And it's very, very enjoyable. Now, can you tell us like how long you let them sit in each? Or is that? We're still playing around with it.

No, no, no. I mean, we're still playing around. The Ember on it itself is just two or three weeks. And the Sherry cast can be longer, but that changes as we use the barrels. The more we use them, obviously we get diminishing returns on them. At Angel's Envy, for example, with pork casks, I think we were maybe we'd use them four or five times before we would be finished with them. So these are just our first blends that we've done over the last year or so. So we're still kind of feeling that out. But I think with the Ambarana, once again, you just got to be so careful. You know, the first use, you're going to keep it in there less, the second use longer, third use longer, and everything like that. We don't even know how long they'll last. And it's hard for us to, you know, one of the ways to keep the staves moist in between uses is to put the, you know, to put something in the amber on a barrel is just to keep the staves moist. So we'll, we'll see how that works as well. We're still experiencing, you know, we're flying, we're building the plane as we're flying it. Okay.

Like I said, this says volume one. So will it be like volume two, volume three? Is that the plan? We haven't thought that far out yet.

Honest answer. We haven't thought that far out yet. We really haven't. It was the same way at Angel's Envy. We've had our flagships and then we created what we call the Seller Collection, which was special releases and things like that. we'll see how we, how we, you know, how we go. I mean, it makes sense that we're going to do the different volumes.

Yeah. That's what I figure with stories and the way, I mean, let's be honest, you're such a good, I mean, you're a pro at the finish, finish biz, if you will. So I could just see like volume two being something a little different, a little tweak, that kind of thing. Maybe, not trying to give you business ideas, but that's how my mind works. I'm like, that's what I want. Northwest is going to play around volume two and that kind of thing, maybe.

I'll take all the business advice I can get. Like I said, sometimes it feels like we're building the plane as we're flying it, but it's served us well so far. And that's the nice thing about being a small company is that we can be nimble. You know, and it's tough times in the whiskey world right now. We got a lot of headwinds. We've got a lot of stuff on the shelf. There is a kind of a thinning of the herd which really needed to happen. I'm glad it's happening. I've been saying for three or four years it's going to happen and it's finally happening. And then the brands that are going to survive, I think, are the ones that have a good story. good liquid, good package, good price. And I think that we we check those boxes, but it's still hard. I mean, we're out there busting our butts every day. Right. And I don't remember it being this hard with angel's envy. And it might not have been, you know, 11 years ago, you know, the climate was different than it is now. And I'm older. So that might have something to do. I'm working harder than I expected to be right now. Let's put it like that.

Yeah, you know, that kind of brings up a question because I can remember being at the Bardstown Bourbon Festival Oh my goodness, that's probably been 10 or 12 years ago. And you were like, you were releasing at the Bardstown Bourbon Festival. You had like the upstairs of one of the... The penthouse. Yeah, the penthouse of the building there. I was there and it was like, wow, this is amazing. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, you know, the years of success with Angel's Envy and you were inducted into the hall of fame. And, you know, a lot of us would have just like hung up our hats and said, I'm retiring, it's over, I'm done. There must have been an aha moment where you said, no, I'm going to do it again.

I'm just curious. I think the aha moment was probably when the boys, I felt like they really wanted to do something. I got bored in retirement as well. part of me sometimes thinks that maybe I should have just stayed that way and just done my thing and laid around down in Florida, but I just wasn't very good at that. And to be able to do something with the kids is really a, that's kind of the, that's the big motivating factor here. And if I can get this thing off the ground and it's still, we're still, building this brand, you know, if I can get it off the ground and continue to do well, then I can hand the keys over to the boys and then I can go back and, you know, do whatever we do in retirement, which I don't know what that is, but we'll see.

I'm sure there was a bit of joy there with Lincoln working with you and then now you with your boys. And I can get that. I can understand that. I would say you're kind of the fortunate son to have six boys. My goodness. I mean, how many brothers do you have?

I don't have any brothers. I have one sister. Wow.

So you've really expanded the Henderson family tree just a little bit.

Oh yeah. There's Henderson's everywhere. Um, you can, you can't throw a rock in Louisville and not hit somebody that, that is either in our family or knows our family or works with our family, you know, between our businesses and, you know, um, between all of our businesses, our family businesses, we probably have. 250, 300 employees. Um, so it's, um, which is, which is nice. I mean, it's no, we're, we're blessed. We've got some wonderful folks that are in our, in our, in our orbit. You know, we're going to talk with Brian Gelfo in a minute. Brian's another, is one of those people in our family orbit that, um, you know, is a dear member of our family as well. So, um, Yeah, it's that weird cousin that shows up at the family reunions. But you love him. And he's showing up in shorts and really nice tennis shoes when it's 20 degrees outside. And a short sleeve shirt. So it's that cousin.

Cousin Eddie.

I like cousin Eddie.

There you go. So you brought it up earlier. You guys have probably one of the most unique bottle designs there are. It's opaque. What was the thought process behind that, I guess?

I think just to be radically different. The first thing I looked at was shape. And I noticed that what most people are going to think about, if you look at the bourbon aisle, there's maybe eight or nine different bourbon bottle shapes. That's it. There aren't that many different shape configurations. So the first thing I wanted to do was stand out with shape. We got that with that six-sided bottle, and that also represents the six boys. But then I started looking at it. So first thing I noticed was shape. But then I started, I just didn't think that was enough of a differentiator. And then I spent time in the tequila aisle. I spent time at the rum aisles. Scotch, every, you know, even liqueurs. And then I noticed one thing that we didn't have in the Bourbon Isle was we didn't have any color. You know, there weren't any opaque bottles like there are with tequilas and rums and scotches and things like that. So then that thought started creeping into my mind as a way just to be, just to throw out the book. And also I was getting in my own head, too, you know, with Angel's Embi bottle was so unique. And I was competing against that. I don't know if that makes any sense or not. I had that in my head. And when you've created a bottle that's iconic and you're trying to do the next thing, you really you fight in your own brain about how to do that. You know, what makes it better or different? And, you know, can you do it again? You know, it's almost your own worst enemy. So you had to throw it out. I had to just say, look, you know, this is what we did here. This is what we're going to do here to make it different. And that's how we ended up on the opaque bottle. It's glass. You look at it, it may look ceramic. It's got a matte finish. But it's a nice heavy, you know, it holds well when you pour it. All those things are really important. It's got a nice cork finish. Um, but, uh, I love the matte finish. I love the black and white bottles. I think they're really cool.

Can we, uh, talk a little bit about the Kentucky castle and, uh, kind of the, the, the marrying of like, uh, luxury hospitality and a working distillery. How does that all come together?

The initial vision was was to and I don't remember when I got hit with this idea. I think it was kind of like when the middle of the night kind of things, you know, you have a moment and for some reason something popped into my brain about the Kentucky Castle and how that would be a really cool place to have either have a distillery there. or have it more bourbon centric because it's let's say on the bourbon trail there's really no specific bourbon trail but it's in that area it's close to woodford it's close to for our buffalo trace it's close to castle and key so so that was the initial thought We soon realized, and it's an amazing wedding venue, it's a great spa, farm-to-table restaurant. The notion of putting a distillery on there, though, just kind of started as we looked at the environment there and this beautiful setting, I decided not to put an industrial distillery right there behind the castle. It would have really ruined it. It would have ruined the environment there. So we've looked at some other places in Versailles to do it. I do have to say we've kind of slowed that roll a little bit because of the headwinds in the industry. It would be almost irresponsible now to spend 80 or 90 million dollars on a new distillery today. I'm not talking about still we need to do it. But right now we can have whiskey produced for us at a fraction of the cost that it was, you know, even two years ago. So the distillery is still gonna happen. We're just gonna kinda slow the roll on that a little bit. And we'll continue to make the castle more bourbon-centric and in a lot of ways non-denominational. It's not the true story Kentucky castle. Even though we'll have true story cocktails there, even though we'll have special things that I still wanna represent. I wanna be one of the best bourbon bars in Kentucky. And that means everybody's at the party. And that's what you'll see when you come to the castle, but you have to come see it. It is an iconic destination. There's nothing like it. And it's a, it's a great place to stay. It's beautiful. Yeah.

It's a wonderful venue and I'm sad to say I've been past there. I don't know a gazillion times and you know, you're always like, wonder what's in there, you know, and, you know, they're forever. It was kind of almost, I can't say abandoned, but it was, I guess just lived in by someone, but kind of had to be somewhat recluse. And then it's been a couple other things since then and I just never had an opportunity, but yeah.

Yeah. And it was the same way for me. I mean, anybody who's lived out in that part of the state or, you know, we all drove past it, you know, it's 50 years old, you know, as a kid, you know, we'd be like, well, it's a thing of mystery. And it was originally built as a private residence. It never was completed as a private residence. And over the years, it became like a bed and breakfast and then a wedding venue and then a boutique hotel. And we have it now. But it's truly an amazing place. Todd, anytime, Jim, you're welcome to come and see us anytime. And I think you'll really enjoy it.

Yeah, we've met with friends on a number of occasions there. And it's always been a great experience. And the food is out of this world. And the service is great. And it's definitely something that you want to do. If you're touring the Bourbon Trail and you get an opportunity to visit the Kentucky Castle, it's a great time.

Please do. It's an open invitation and maybe Brian will touch on it. I'm really excited about First of all, I'm excited that you guys were able to try True Story. And I hope you'll continue to enjoy it. I think that the rye in particular is just one of those things. It's like the gift that keeps on giving. But in the second half today, when Brian Gelfo, I'll be quiet and Brian is able to talk about Brothers the Leaf. just to kind of frame it up a little bit in the second half. But these are some great whiskeys you're going to try coming up here as well. You know, as I said earlier, Brian's a dear family friend and, you know, I think Brian started at whiskey almost as a hobby and he was always in the industry and, you know, as a lover of bourbon and, you know, started the bourbon mafia, which is a great charitable bourbon group. But Brian always had a dream to have his own brand, and he's one of those few people that actually took action on a lifelong dream, which just by itself to me is one of the most admirable things we can do. Anybody can dream. It's the people who actually make it happen. So we're happy to have Brothers of the Leaf as part of the Saga Spirits family, and we're even more happy to have Brian part of the family. He's always been part of the family, but out there. talking about brothers of the leaf and sampling and everything like that. So at any rate, so that's my talk about True Story. I really hope everybody, I know you'll continue to listen for the second half here and you guys are, you're in for a treat, man, with these whiskeys, I'm telling you.

Well, Wes, do you want to let the folks know how they can follow True Story on the social media, since we're going to kind of do this in two halves?

You are right. You are right. And I'm horrible about that. That's all right. Forgetting to do that. True Story is a true story. Whiskies dot com, Brian, or true story whiskey dot com. Yeah, true story whiskey dot com. And then we're on Instagram as well. I'm at KY Bourbon Maker, KY Bourbon Maker. Please follow me there and follow the brand there. My Instagram page can be a lot of fun, so I'd love to see you there. I love to interact with folks that enjoy the brand. So that's how you can find us. On the website, it'll talk about the places where we're available. You can also order online from our website. We encourage you to do that if we're not in your state yet. And just thanks for your support, man. I mean, you know, we're very fortunate as a family to have everyone's support, and we appreciate what you guys do, spreading the Bourbon gospel.

All right, well, thank you, Wes. We appreciate you coming on the Bourbon Road, and we certainly look forward to the second half with Brian and Brothers of the Leaf. We're gonna have a great time, folks. Stick around. We will be right back.

Hello there, Drew Hanisch, Whiskey Lore, and I am excited to announce that I have a brand new book coming out called Experiencing American Whiskey. Now, if you have checked out my travel guide to Experiencing Kentucky Bourbon, you'll know that I go deep into the details of Kentucky Bourbon. Well, imagine that I've spread this out across the entire United States now, and I'm covering a thousand distilleries, coast to coast, and even Alaska and Hawaii, I have 227 detailed profiles in there from the distilleries that I've had firsthand contact with. I give you all the details that you need to know, like when they have tours, if they do tastings, cocktails, and everything is in a state by state format so that you can roll through, find your particular state that you're traveling to, and have all that information at your fingertips. On top of that, I have a website resource where you can bookmark and actually create a wish list of the distilleries that you'd like to visit. I cover state regulations so you know how many bottles of whiskey you can walk out with from a store, from a distillery and so on. So it is an exciting book. It is the biggest thing that I've put together to this point. And right now it is going to be going on sale on January the 13th, but it is It's actually available for pre-order right now at whiskylore.org slash shop. That's Whiskey Lore's travel guide to experiencing American whiskey.

Hey there, Bourbon Roadies! It's Diane Strong with Bourbon on the Banks. I'm popping in to let you know tickets for this year's Bourbon on the Banks Festival go on sale March 17th, and we've made some exciting changes. For the first time ever, special access ticket holders will enter at noon. That means just 300 guests will have the entire festival grounds to themselves for an exclusive one-hour experience. As always, tickets move fast, especially the special access. So set your alarm and mark your calendar for March 17th, 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. And if you're rolling in with a group of 10 or more, reach out to me directly. I'll make sure you receive a special group discount. We can't wait to see you on the river.

All right, listeners, welcome back to the second half of the show. In more ways than one, we have the second guest and that's Brian Goffo. Jim, we had some really fun stuff with Wes Henderson, the true story, um, bourbon and rye. Like, I mean, you had to put him up there with like a call him like a master finisher. I mean, just well put together.

Oh, no, definitely. I mean, it was, it was an epic first half. It was great. It was so awesome to have Wes on. He's been on the show before, but, uh, he's such an innovator in the industry. Uh, such a, uh, a well-known influence and you know, He's one of the great makers of all times. His father was one of the great makers of all times, and I fully expect his children to be great makers of all times. So just a great family, a great whiskey heritage, and it was a pleasure to have him on.

Yeah. So we're going to move over to the Brothers of the Leaf, if you listen to that first half. And this is something, Brian, you started this, what year was that?

2022. It was launched in September of 2022 originally. Okay.

So you want to let us know we're drinking on this first pour?

Yeah. Yeah. You want to give a little background real quick first, before I go into the spirit, just for those who might not know. Sure. Sure. Wes touched on it earlier that I was somebody who just had sort of a passion of doing something in the bourbon industry, but you can't do anything if you don't have the right people behind you. And the most influential person for my journey wasn't necessarily folks in the bourbon industry like Wes and others. It was my wife, Erin, who was tired of hearing me talk about wanting to do something and not doing anything. And some different circumstances happened. And she looked at me and said, it's time to shit or get off the pot. And I did it. I think that might have scared her a little bit. But here we are. So I teamed up with Wes. Wes came to me and acquired the brand that I had originally launched in 22 and said, hey, I want to work with your brand and have you work on the new family brand with us. True story. But you're going to be the face out there of Brothers of the Leaf as well. So it's been really fortuitous to work with the Henderson family as we talked about the pioneers of finished American whiskey. I mean, if it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be the finished American category. It would just be one-offs like people were doing prior to with what they did with Angel's Envy. So it's really fun to get involved in this. But what I do with Brothers of the Leaf is a little different. The secondary finished barrels for Brothers of the Leaf are all barrels that weren't used for something else once before. So there's no wine barrels or cognac barrels or armagnac barrels. These are just various woods. So the first one you guys are starting off with is my straight Kentucky bourbon, finishing toasted French oak. So on the secondary casks, it is just that, a toasted French oak barrel. There's no char on the secondary barrel. This is a five to six year old Green River. As Wes mentioned, we're taking good whiskey and making it better. That's our goal. And then Green River is making some great stuff. But the secondary finish we're doing on it is toasted French oak and it stays in there. You know, it's all based on flavor, not based on time. So we're looking at roughly 90 to 180 days in that toasted French oak cask.

Well, that's, that's a good period of time. That's a good six months in the cask. And, you know, as I knows it, I'm like, I'm getting this like a nutty smoky note. I mean, nutty smoky note. So you say French oak, but sometimes like.

I get like this big waft of like French vanilla too. It's like French vanilla, like a marshmallow cream kind of thing.

Yeah. I mean, you guys are spot on. I mean, I don't ever like to give tasting notes out before somebody tries it because I don't want to steer somebody in a direction. You know, I think it's too easy to do that. I mean, you tell somebody they're going to taste bananas and they taste bananas. But yeah, that's the thing. And even when I'm doing stuff with consumers and tasting sessions, they're like, they want more. And I'm like, well, you taste it first. And then you give me something and then I'll give you more to see if we're all on the same page.

Funny story, Jim can't pick up bananas. Oh, OK. You can say bananas.

He's like, what? Kills one of my best analogies. I talk about bananas a lot.

Yeah, I'm missing those receptors. So unfortunately, I can't pick it up. But the nuttiness, well, the almondiness, I guess, is what I want to say. There's a little bit of smoky note on it.

I'm sorry, I was just going to say for those who might not be familiar, the term brothers of the leaf is a common term used with cigar smokers, fellow brothers of the leaf or sisters of the leaf. So the original intent, again, just doing this as a hobby was, you know, big bold flavors that stand up to cigar smokers and stand up to their cigars where their favorite cigar is not going to take away from this whiskey and this whiskey is not going to take away from their cigar. So I know you guys have the bottles in front of you and you've seen this kind of stuff, but my guess is, without putting words in your mouth, this doesn't drink like the proof you see under the bottle.

No. No. Definitely not.

And I was going to bring in the cigars because one of the things I definitely want to ask you is like, so what would you pair cigar wise with this one?

So I have to be completely honest when I'm talking about this. I am a cigar lover. I'm not a cigar aficionado. I'm better with whiskey than I am with cigars. But for the bourbon that you guys are trying, most people tend to appreciate that more with a medium plus to a Maduro type of cigar, medium to heavy cigar. You don't really want to smoke a real light cigar with that because then it would probably overpower the cigar. But it's very nice at 112 proof, which nobody ever guesses. Again, it's a great compliment.

Yeah, I think this would, yeah, this is kind of, it would match like directly with like a Cubano, Maduro, barber pole kind of like right in the middle, but you could go all the way Maduro with it. I think absolutely. It would definitely hold up. I'm not a, I'm not an aficionado either, but I do like cigars. I'm actually wearing a cigar sharp right now. Nice.

There you go. So Wes kind of touched on it. You kind of, I mean, I guess the first way I kind of heard about you was the Bourbon Mafia because we have a mutual friend, Pam Marshall, whose husband Omar was a big part of that as well. So tell us a little bit about, you know, a little bit about what that was about.

So that was a group that started back in 2013 and we were mainly just bourbon aficionados for lack of a better term. I think we like to use cigar aficionado and bourbon enthusiast. It sounds a little less pretentious. But we got together as a small group and mainly it was we were helping each other get allocated whiskeys that some people might not be able to get in other states. There's a big misconception that everything, at least back then, everything was available in Kentucky when it really wasn't. We didn't see stuff on shelves here. I had an easier time buying stuff out of Chicago than I had buying stuff in Louisville. So we just got together and formed this group, the Bourbon Mafia. And over the last 12 to 13 years, between direct donations from the group and things that our members have done on their own with other side projects and stuff, we're in excess of $1.5 million in donations to various charities throughout the country. It's amazing. And a lot of that was through single barrel picks that we used for events and dinners and gift baskets and things of that nature. And it just really created a friendship and a bond. And that's where I met a lot of folks. Our very first charity event was an Angels Envy Dinner at the Marriott East in Louisville. Um, and I had known Kyle and Wes, you know, Kyle was Wes's oldest son. I'd known him for a, you know, a little bit then and just had a great time at this, at this event. And they became the 13th and 14th members of the group that night. You know, so it just kind of grew over the years. And, uh, you know, Julie, uh, Wes's wife likes to joke that, you know, they started this brand angels envy and launched it back in 2011 and Brian showed up and Brian didn't go away. That's. joke about. So I just kind of hung around. I became like Wes said, that cousin you don't want to talk to at the family reunion or that uncle that says all the inappropriate things to the other kids around. So yeah, that's kind of where I've been the last 15 years.

So was it that single barrel picks that kind of like, I mean, was there a point where you're like, I really enjoyed doing this, I want to take it to another level?

You know, I did and I started doing different things. And again, I got to give Aaron my wife credit because she made comments to me even before the more recent ones to start a brand of, hey, you know more about the bourbon industry and get paid less than anybody involved in it. I was doing things for free. I was doing tastings for free. I was doing working for events for free and doing stuff just because I enjoyed it. You know, there was a period of time where if there was a bourbon event in Kentucky, I could pretty much walk in the door because somebody thought I was working for somebody and I wasn't, but somebody thought I was. You know, and then got my first sort of break with the Kentucky Derby Museum. I took over a bunch of work from Fred Minick, who we all know established himself as an author and speaker over the years. And, you know, he was to the point where his schedule, you know, didn't allow him to do a lot of the speaking engagements at the museum. And I did that and then went to work for Rabbit Hole Distilling and did work for them for several years and actually did my first blending and bottling at Rabbit Hole's facility in downtown Louisville. So it just kind of grew from there. And it's, uh, you know, it was very, there was a lot of circumstances a few years ago that led up to me doing it full time. But, uh, you know, I can't say I have any regrets. I mean, this is, you know, my job is to make whiskey and talk about it. So there are much worse jobs to have.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's a, that's a great problem to have. It's a great, uh, adventure to be on. And certainly, uh, the fact that you get to do it as a full-time, uh, gig, how great is that?

Yeah. Yeah. Can't go wrong. I like this initial sweetness and then you're just hit by that French oak finish.

You get a little spiciness and smokiness from that French oak. When I worked with my original Cooper cheer about what barrels I wanted to use for the bourbon, French oak came to light and it was something I honestly didn't have a lot of familiarity with, but I trusted what they were saying and ideas they had. And it's a very unique type of wood, especially not doing any char on it. That was one of the big things is it was just doing something different. Letting it be just a toasted French oak, just like it was used for wine but didn't have wine in it. Where I think it's very easy for anybody doing a finished bourbon, they think char is a necessity. Now, I say that in my other two whiskies that you're going to try have a level of char to them, want a light char and want a heavy char. But you know, it's just, I was looking for different flavor profiles from things.

Yeah. Well, I'm actually actually really looking forward to having this with a cigar. This is, this would be a great porch whiskey with a cigar. Cooler than hotter evening.

Yeah. After the sunset.

Yeah.

No talking about cigars. Um, I do have a partnership with Drew estate cigars. Don't know if you guys are familiar with them. They have the acid line, the Liga Provada line, the, the New Dominica line and other things. Tabac, you name it, they're one of the best, if not the best cigar manufacturers in the world and have a very good personal relationship with them and a business relationship because they used to release a Brothers of the Leaf cigar. Oh, wow. They haven't released it in so many years. And we are currently working on a new barrel age cigar where they actually have empty barrels of ours down in Esteli, Nicaragua. where they are aging filler and binder to do a new Brothers of the Leaf co-branded cigar. Don't have an exact release date on the yet. Hopefully by this time next year, we see something, but you know, the cigars, you know, their thing, they're the ones that know it best, you know, working with, with Jonathan Drew, the founder of the company and Willie Herrera, the master blender there, they're going to come up with the right cigar. But that's just another element we can add to this, you know, to pair with these whiskeys. Fantastic.

Good news. I'm looking forward to that. Just give us a shout out when the time comes. Absolutely. Love this. Love this. So can we move on to the next one?

Yeah. I'm going to add real quick, Brian, what's a MSRP on that?

Oh, so, so all the brothers of leaf products, MSRP is line price at 79.99. Thank you. Yeah.

I think that's a great whiskey at $79 and definitely one that, uh, and so your official pairing notes are, uh, mild to medium to, uh, medium plus to Maduro for the bourbon.

Um, the next two, not to get ahead of ourselves, I say, you know, medium plus and below. I'm a mild to medium plus guy. When I smoke cigars, uh, Maduro has put me to sleep. I don't know what it is. I smoke one Maduro. I'm okay.

I get halfway through a second one. I'm sleeping on a chair.

You know, um, but the other two whiskeys because of their uniqueness in there, you know, almost more refreshingness to them. Um, they, they work well with those lighter cigars.

All right. So let's introduce the second whiskey. Cause I've already had it to my nose.

Yeah. So the second one is my rye whiskey. So I do a straight rye whiskey. It's a six to eight year old MGP, the 95 five rye recipe from MGP. And I finish it in toasted lightly charred white oak barrels. What I really like about this whiskey is very often I get people that say they don't like rye whiskey, like Wes mentioned, it's just a misnomer. People who say they don't like rye whiskey haven't tried the right rye whiskies. They're used to more of the traditional old school rye whiskies that were hot and spicy and kind of punched you in the gut when you tasted them. This is very different. You guys, I'll let you guys tell me what you're getting on the nose and then what you get when it hits your palate, but I don't think it's what you expect from a rye whiskey.

I was going to say a lot of those people that don't like rye are also trying like, you know, if they're newcomers to it, you know, they're probably trying like a four year old. I mean, you know, let's be honest, maybe like an overholt or something like that, which, which is more cocktail rye. You need to put that, it's not meant to be sipped. And it's got that youth and it's got the spice. Yep.

They're good whiskeys. There's nothing wrong with the whiskey, but they're just not meant to be sipped in a glass. Like, you know, like you guys are doing neat. They're meant to be putting a cocktail.

All right. So I'm hitting this right. And I'm thinking on the nose, I'm getting like a, like a nice balance between a floral spicy note.

Um, can you get from the ride?

Yeah. Fresh getting that mintiness that. It's got like a, a new leather note to it and a little bit of, uh, like, uh, like a light nuttiness.

And I would say those, those non rye elements you're getting on the nose or more from those toasted lightly charred white oak casks. So it's, it's toasted with a number one char for those who are used to the one to five scale. So just enough to burn it.

Yeah. There's a little bit of sweetness there on the nose, but I'm kind of interested to look into for the taste to see if it comes through on the taste.

Now I'm curious. I'll, I'll spoil the third one, but the last few ports we've got are. in the toasted white oak. How come you didn't go that with the bourbon? Did you try both ways and just thought the French turned out better kind of thing?

It was one of those things when I first started, I was small and the cooperage I was working with had just to be completely transparent. They had leftover French oak that somebody hadn't used on a previous order. And the guy's like, hey, I can give you these barrels for a steal. French oak is three to four times the price of white oak when you're looking for a finishing barrel. And he gave them to me for a steal and warned me, if you get big, you're gonna pay more for your barrels going forward. And he wasn't lying. But it was just one of those things to try something different. And it was just that, from what they had seen, what people had tried, rye whiskey didn't do well in French Oak. Um, so, you know, I relied on their expertise. So these are the guys that know their wood. They knew what they were doing. So we, we, we stuck with the French Oak for the bourbon and did, you know, the white oak for the rye.

So Brian, I'm curious, are you a long ash guy or do you tap it off early?

Um, you know, I, my problem is I talk a lot. I mean, I can talk your guys ears off and, uh, a standard cigar, you know, uh, a standard, uh, uh, I'm trying to think like a Corona sized cigar, which is probably a 30 or 45 minutes cigar takes me about three and a half hours to smoke because so much. So I, I more often have to break my ass off and relight because I found so much, my cigars go out. Yeah. I will not win a long ash contest because I won't shut up.

That's awesome. I always feel like I'm in the contest. Let's see if I can get the longest ash. Everybody's different.

I hang around a lot of those contact tests and give people, you know, a lot of flack while they're doing it and make fun of them. But yeah, I could never, I can never make it past the first five minutes. Cause my cigar would just go out and I'd be done. So, what did you guys think with that ride? Did it surprise you a little bit when it hit your palate?

This is one I've had in the past and I was going to bring that up because this was when you were doing your own thing at that time, I believe. Because I guess it was probably...

It was 2023.

The late 2023 is what I was thinking early 2024 when you visited the Frankfurt Bourbon Society. And I think I even have a bottle of your ride and it's 118 proof. So when did you kind of did you transition to a more steady proof? Like once you kind of moved into the saga?

Yeah, my first couple batches I was doing at CashStrength. And one thing I realized, it was when Kyle and I really sat and started talking about the business model going forward, is as you try to grow, and our batches are very small. To this day, our batches are only 500 gallons at a time. So that's not a lot in finishing barrels. And that's 8 to 10 finishing barrels, because they're full. You don't lose a lot in your finishing barrels. If you're trying to keep track of batch numbers and do it like that, if batch number five goes to California and people love it, and batch number six goes to Florida, people are like, eh, you could really kill your brand with inconsistency in those batches. So we decided, hey, we're going to go for a more consistent profile. And we're also going to go for a more consistent proof. And we tasted things down all the way down to 100 proof and then back up. and actually stopped at 111 proof. And we're like, oh, 111 proof, this is great. Everything works at this 111 proof. I looked at it and I said, we can't do 111 proof. It was wise because too many people have already done 111 proof. Nobody's done 112. Let's do 112. So we decided to 112. So my cash strengths were between 114, 119. So it's not a big jump to go down to 112. You know, I still say you can always lower the proof. You can't raise it. Right. So at 112, but, but even that rye. So I think personally, and you guys tell me what you think, I think that rye drinks even lower than the bourbon you started with. I definitely don't think it tastes like 112 proof.

It does just a little bit lower. Yep. Yeah. I love it. It's got that mint, marshmallow. You know, it's got a nice amount of barrel char to it.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. You know, most people, you're not going to go to a bar in most places and order cocktails with, you know, $79.99, you know, $80 bottles of whiskey. But at home, you might make a cocktail with it and it makes an incredible Manhattan. It's got a little bit of sweetness that you don't normally get, but it's just smooth. It's nice. It's all around. I mean, I've been so happy with that rye whiskey. I hate to say that I like it more than my bourbon, but in most cases I usually do.

It's kind of like a graham cracker thing going on too. It's really nice. It's good. Almost like a, it doesn't have quite the chocolate, so it's got the marshmallow and the graham cracker. You're just missing that chocolate for the s'mores. Yep. But it's delicious.

Yeah. I fell in love. I fell in love the first time I tried it. Shall we move on to the third pour?

This is a little bit darker.

Yeah, I mean, Todd, Todd, you know, he gave me the transition into the final whiskey. So the final whiskey is a blend of bourbon and rye whiskeys. Now it's not a blend of two whiskeys you've already tasted. It's bourbon and rye whiskey that I finished separately and toasted heavily charred white oak barrels. Toast with a number three or four char on those. That's why it is a little darker. You know, it's a little darker than the first two. And it was actually the result of a happy accident. When I did my first blending and bottling at Rabbit Hole, When I finished my finishing barrels for the first time, I had a little bit of extra bourbon rye. I bought one of their barrels, and Rabbit Hole uses toasted number three char for all their core products. And I just had a barrel of this stuff aging. I had roughly half bourbon, half rye aging in this barrel, and it was delicious. It tasted great. And after about two and a half, three months, I didn't know what I was going to do with it, right? I had one barrel. I wasn't going to mark it with one barrel. So I bottled it, paid the taxes and brought it home. I gave it to people as gifts. I put little stickers on it. I called it Brains Boo Rye. I can't legally call it Boo Rye because those, you know, nice people at High West trademarked that. So none of us other, you know, folks in the industry can use that name. Bastards. But no, I joke, obviously. But then again, when the opportunity came with the Henderson family, Kyle was like, you know, we need to reproduce that. But in order to be consistent with it, we couldn't just rely on putting the two whiskeys into that barrel together. We do finish separately. So it's really nice about that. I joke with people. I said it's kind of like my favorite child because I finished those two whiskeys separately. When I think both of those are good enough to bottle on their own, then I start blending them for a flavor profile. Every batch we do is slightly different. Could be 70% bourbon, 30% rye, could be 60% rye, 40% bourbon. It's all based on flavor. Nothing's based on time. It's all based on the flavor that the consumer is going to get.

Now, I got to tell, I'm sorry, I got to tell the story because when Brian came to the Frankfurt Bourbon Society, he brought one of those that came out of his barrel at his house. So there might even be a smidge. That's one of those we kind of like, you know, we have a lot of bottle shares and just things where we pull out some bottles. And that's one of those that's kind of in the back. So nobody sees it. I think I have six cases left. Oh wow. Of 40.

I had 40 because it was a full barrel. Right. So yeah, but it's just a fun one. This one, you know, again, not to put words in everybody's mouth, but you brought up the rye was missing that chocolatey note. Well, I think that comes through a little bit with this blend. The blend is just so unique that if we didn't just describe it the way we did, if you just put this in a glass and handed somebody, nobody in a million years is going to be able to guess what this is. They're just not.

Yeah. This is like a, uh, uh, a vanilla cream sitting on top of a smoky oak with like a, uh, Oh my goodness. Like a nutty. I don't know.

This is, this is very layered, very layered. Yes. Smokey oak. I love that.

And you put a couple drops of water in it, it changes. You put a small ice cube in it, it changes. We've seen people making fun cocktails with it. I mean, people do, I'm doing events all around, you know, I'll be in, you know, I go through our different accounts and people come up with creative cocktails for it. It's just so much fun. Just again, it's something that people just aren't used to tasting when it comes to an American whiskey.

Yeah, that's really unique.

Let's talk about the castle whiskey cigars, you know, elevated dining, just the whole, how everything comes together.

I mean, yeah, you know, I mean, you know, Wes, Wes came out of retirement, like he said earlier, uh, in the first part of this show that, you know, he thought he was going to stay retired, but, you know, came out of retired because of his six sons. I joke and say, you know, he had six pretty sons that said, Hey, what are you going to do for me? But he's got great sons. I mean, really every single one of his boys, I'm proud to call them all friends and they treat me like family. It's fantastic. But he got the Kentucky Castle. He talked about the plans for that. They never wanted to make the castle a brand home. There is some true story centric things there. There is Brothers of the Leaf available there. There's actually a Kentucky Castle single barrel that we do special for there. So it's very nice and unique there to have that opportunity. I mentioned Drew Estate. Every September, Drew Estate has an event called the Family Reunion. This year will be the third year. And I'm the co-host with Drew Estate at the castle. We do this event. How fantastic. Yeah. It's roughly a 200 person sit down dinner and cigar pairing and whiskey pairing. We do panels and things of that nature. So it's just a lot of fun to be able to do these things there and have this venue for people to come visit. Like I said, it's not officially part of the Bourbon Trail, but it's right there where it's at.

Oh my goodness.

I'm like you guys, I drove by it for years. My wife drove by it for years until I was part of this organization. I never went there and saw it, how beautiful it is and enjoyed the food. That's why I tell people, hey, just go there for breakfast one day. Go there for brunch on the weekend. Do something. You don't have to stay there. You can if you want, obviously. But it's a neat place to come visit. And it just really works. Everything that we're doing as Saga Spirits as a whole, we just really complement one another. The Brothers of Leaf whiskies aren't competing with the True Story whiskies. We're different enough to where we're engaging consumers across the board. from newcomers to the whiskey business and bourbon segment to seasoned professionals and cigar enthusiasts and cocktail professionals. It's really great to have such a full portfolio to offer folks.

Yeah, the castle is a great visit and we've had a few movers and checkers with us as we visited there and it's, it's always fun. Everybody's always impressed. It's a great time. Well, I tell you what, let me know who's palm I have to grease to be part of that Drew Estates event.

That would be fantastic. That is a hard one. I got to admit when they put their events on sale, those tickets sell out quick. And, and I usually have to schmooze their, uh, their, uh, event director and coordinator to, to even get an extra ticket to bring somebody else. She, she puts one aside for my wife and I, and, and, uh, I usually have to pull teeth and make promises that I usually can't keep. But we'll keep it in mind. They're looking at updating, doing different things. Like I said, this is going to be the third year. They do a private selection of Brothers of the Leaf for the event each year. And that's a lot of fun. This year, it's going to be a private blend. And actually, I don't want to deviate too much, but at last year's event, we auctioned off for Cigars for Warriors an opportunity to participate in this year's private selection and get a stay at the castle. Wow. I think it's in June who won it. They're going to come and spend two nights at the castle. We're going to do the selection for this year's event. Cool.

Cool. So cool.

Brian, is there any chance that you might play around with a single mall for this or?

So I'm not really looking at single malls, just because honestly, it's not something I'm not a big fan of most. We are going to look, you know, these are the three core products. That's urban, the Ryan blend. Those are our three core products, but we are looking at some ideas for some different woods for some special releases. We have two projects that we're in process on right now. One of which, and just because I don't want somebody stealing my ideas, I don't want to say the types of woods we're looking to use. But one of them is a wood that I have only found one Japanese whiskey to ever be finished in it. I've never seen anybody else do a whiskey finish in this type of wood that I'm wanting to use. And I actually had to go. I was on a trip to South Africa last year and actually found the bottles in South Africa to have a taste. I couldn't even get them online. I already have nobody had them, but I was able to get them in South Africa and try this. So that's it's a unique one. So you will see some one off offerings, but no, these are going to be the core product. OK. Well, this has been pretty awesome, I think.

What do you think, Jim?

Oh yeah. Lots of fun. So informative. So great. Great whiskeys, by the way. I mean, this show has been like front to bottom. All great whiskeys.

And I appreciate that because, you know, one thing when I'm traveling around the country, you know, we're currently distributed in 10 states. We're going to add another 13 or 14 states this year. You know, I'm not just talking about Brothers of the Leaf, the brand I founded, but I am talking about True Story as well. And very proud of that fact that I get to talk about, you know, two great brands, the great family history, give something to everybody. It's really a blast to be out there and doing it all.

Awesome.

Well, Brian, you want to let the folks know how they can follow you on all the social medias and things?

Yeah. So our website is BOTLWhiskey.com. And then you can also find us at BOTLWhiskey on Facebook and Instagram. I'm not into the TikTok generation yet, so I don't have that. and then I'm on the socials as the bourbon brain. So I can be followed there as well. And people can see where I'm going. Like I said, Wes and I are traveling around the country talking about the brands and promoting stuff. So keep an eye on our socials and you'll see where we're at, where our next events are, next tastings, bottle signings, all that kind of good stuff.

Awesome. Thank you again for coming on. This was kind of a fun idea. Like I said, this is the first time we've ever had two halves, two halves to make a whole kind of thing.

No, and it's really fun. You know, I know Wes has got a lot of other stuff going on and it's, it's nice for us to be able to be together and talk about things. And you should see us when we're both in the same room and sort of feeding off one another. People think it's a comedy act sometimes, but it's just because, you know, we're, we're like brothers, so it's great to be out there.

Brothers of the leaf. Yeah.

Well, Jim and I understand that we're like brothers sometimes think with the same mind and kind of thing.

Which can always be dangerous, right? But it's always fun.

That's very true.

But no guys, thank you. I appreciate you guys giving me the time, giving us the time, you know, being, being newer right now with the current landscape, it's great to get in front of your listeners and, and let them hear about us. And hopefully they want to try us and, uh, you know, keep an eye out for, for Wes and I out around the country and, and say hi when you hear we're going to be somewhere. Yes. Go try their whiskeys.

Todd, you want to take us out this time? Sure.

We can find The Bourbon Road on all social media outlets. You can find us on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, threads. We do all those things every single week. Jim and I will drop a new episode every Wednesday, so make sure you hit that subscribe button so that you don't miss an episode. We'll help you get down the road on your commute to work or whatever it is you're doing when you listen to The Bourbon Road. We'd also appreciate it if you took the time to leave us a review on the podcast platform that you use. Sometimes we'll have a guest on, and tonight we had two. We had Brian Guelfo and Wes Henderson. A lot of fun. Sometimes we're just reviewing whiskeys. Sometimes we're comparing whiskeys. But every time we get together, we always have fun with who we're with and what we're doing. Check out our Facebook group, the Bourbon Roadies. It's a lot of great people, about 3,500 or so bourbon enthusiasts that love to drink whiskey, share stories, share pictures, share experiences, share birthdays. Just good people having a lot of fun. And lastly, be sure to check out the bourbonroad.com where you can pick up some of our hats and clothes and things like that. But until the next time, we'll see you down the bourbon road.

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